*Official* England in South Africa

[aussie]

I will agree that perhaps Cook was almost definitely not an ideal choice as a replacement if you want to talk about replacing Shah, I think Trott has also been added to the squad and Denly has been retained (for no apparent reason) So there are plenty of scapegoats who could have gone out of the team, I don't think Cook is the person who should be attacked for playing himself into form against weak opposition, runs are runs. It is better than Denly who has been struggling for runs, I would have been an advocate of him(Denly) staying if he managed a few 30's, this was not the case. I think if he does not score in this series, as tough a series as it is, he should be discarded back to county cricket..

Yea i have bo problem with this. But i dont understand why you have problems with Denly being in squad currently & how you can say he has struggled. Its still very early days in ODI career, he has showed his ability in phases so i'm willing to work with him.

Lets not forget Morgan took a few games well to replicate those stylish OD batting for Middlesex for ENG. Before the CT he has very much feeling his way round as well.

On Cook you cant just say runs are runs. Our domesitc competition is very weak in many area's we need accept this. All domestic runs doesn't equal international success especially when the bowling attack is so shocking. As i said with Cook he needs to at least 2 full domestic season of such performances for it to be taken serious (while hoping he gets runs againts a county attack during that time which is close to international quality).

However if you consider the selectors lines of thinking and the captains, if Cook does succeed, it makes their job easier, the test vice captain is in the one day team and if Strauss does retire in a couple of years, Cook becomes a decent one day player, they have found a new man at the helm.

Well that would be pretty dumb line of thinking IMO. All ODI planning ATS should be with the 2011 WC as the zenith. Cook should not be considered as an opening option at all.

Depending on whether Flintoff plays or not the opening options other than Strauss (if he maintains adecent ODI form over the next 2 years) should be Denly, one of Davies/Kieswetter or Trott.

 

[NUFAN]

Kieswetter looked so ordinary in the T20, I know it's a different format but surely he's a bit overhyped!

 

[Woodster]

Kieswetter looked so ordinary in the T20, I know it's a different format but surely he's a bit overhyped!

Think he'll agree that he's been woeful at the Champs Lge T20, probably going too hard at it, and not allowing himself time to get set, not that you have a great deal of time in T20, but generally you do have more time than you think.

 

[Woodster]

Yea i have bo problem with this. But i dont understand why you have problems with Denly being in squad currently & how you can say he has struggled. Its still very early days in ODI career, he has showed his ability in phases so i'm willing to work with him.

Lets not forget Morgan took a few games well to replicate those stylish OD batting for Middlesex for ENG. Before the CT he has very much feeling his way round as well.

On Cook you cant just say runs are runs. Our domesitc competition is very weak in many area's we need accept this. All domestic runs doesn't equal international success especially when the bowling attack is so shocking. As i said with Cook he needs to at least 2 full domestic season of such performances for it to be taken serious (while hoping he gets runs againts a county attack during that time which is close to international quality).

Fully agree on Joe Denly, think he has plenty of potential, and is worth persevering with. I don't think he had the look of a man out of his depth during the recent ODI matches, sure he'll be disappointed he didn't really go on in any of the games, but let him develop and learn. Providing he does not endure a real slump whereby he looks totally shot and exceptionally low on confidence, I say stick with him, there are glimpses of real quality in his game, it is now a case of harnessing those skills. If the England management decide he is the future, let him get a steady run of games under his belt.

 

[analyst]

Yea i have no problem with this. But i dont understand why you have problems with Denly being in squad currently & how you can say he has struggled. Its still very early days in ODI career, he has showed his ability in phases so i'm willing to work with him.

Lets not forget Morgan took a few games well to replicate those stylish OD batting for Middlesex for ENG. Before the CT he has very much feeling his way round as well.

On Cook you cant just say runs are runs. Our domesitc competition is very weak in many area's we need accept this. All domestic runs doesn't equal international success especially when the bowling attack is so shocking. As i said with Cook he needs to at least 2 full domestic season of such performances for it to be taken serious (while hoping he gets runs againts a county attack during that time which is close to international quality).



Well that would be pretty dumb line of thinking IMO. All ODI planning ATS should be with the 2011 WC as the zenith. Cook should not be considered as an opening option at all.

Depending on whether Flintoff plays or not the opening options other than Strauss (if he maintains adecent ODI form over the next 2 years) should be Denly, one of Davies/Kieswetter or Trott.

Cook is in the squad now and given that England are playing SA and touring Bangladesh next, I expect Cook will be given a chance to prove he is a one day cricketer again. I take it you are someone who believes in the selectors. I am someone who has little faith in the English selection process in general. I do not believe in English one day cricket in general, so do not for one moment think I am of the opinion that Cook is a superior player than Denly in one day cricket. IMPO, both are equally abject players against the worlds very best at this present moment in time but since they are included in the squads, it would be a pleasant notion if they were to succeed as they are both young cricketers.

I hate this literal copy cat comparison that England seem to want to replicate Australia's Gilchrist theory, the truth is England don't have a Gilchrist but England do have plenty of good wicket keeper batsmen, Prior, Davies, Foster and Kiewswetter are all equally gifted. Its pointless to make them open however, opening for England is a job that specialist openers can handle at the moment. Perhaps in time that attitude will change but at the present moment, I doubt players who are forced in there to just give the run rate a push will be successful e.g Prior, Bopara etc etc.

England need to build on their success and their most successful one day opening partnership was Trescothick and Knight or Trescothick and Strauss, the rest were absolutely dismal.

I agree Denly deserves a chance but so does Cook and hopefully in time both could open together with Cook holding anchor and Denly pushing the runrate up. Langer and Hayden, Gambhir and Sehwag sort of thing.

 

[analyst]

Fully agree on Joe Denly, think he has plenty of potential, and is worth persevering with. I don't think he had the look of a man out of his depth during the recent ODI matches, sure he'll be disappointed he didn't really go on in any of the games, but let him develop and learn. Providing he does not endure a real slump whereby he looks totally shot and exceptionally low on confidence, I say stick with him, there are glimpses of real quality in his game, it is now a case of harnessing those skills. If the England management decide he is the future, let him get a steady run of games under his belt.

Problem with the England management is, they have stuck with Ian Bell and Collingwood long enough with no reward.

 

[Woodster]

Problem with the England management is, they have stuck with Ian Bell and Collingwood long enough with no reward.

Tbf, while Bell does continue to confuse in the ODI arena, perhaps part of the problems may lie with the management failing to wholly clarify what his actual role is, Collingwood has been one of England's stand out players in the shorter formats!

There is a much longer list of players that have been experimented with then discarded, it us up to the management to select players they believe have the attributes to take the side forward, and stick with them. Of course not all of them will come off, but with this strategy, surely we may enjoy more success!!

 

[analyst]

Tbf, while Bell does continue to confuse in the ODI arena, perhaps part of the problems may lie with the management failing to wholly clarify what his actual role is, Collingwood has been one of England's stand out players in the shorter formats!

There is a much longer list of players that have been experimented with then discarded, it us up to the management to select players they believe have the attributes to take the side forward, and stick with them. Of course not all of them will come off, but with this strategy, surely we may enjoy more success!!

Disagree with your defense of Bell, he has had more opportunities than many other cricketers have had at international cricket. He has played almost 50 tests, quite a lot of one days, more or less a settled role at 1/2/3 in the one day arena and at 3-5 in the tests. I have given up on his lazy elegance.

Collingwood is an enigma, while being the best English one day player, he also shirks away from responsibility at the very first opportunity. You would think someone with as much experience as Collingwood would be playing at 3 or 4, but he is still playing at 5, hardly befitting a player who is the best English batsman in the one day arena given the overeliance on Strauss's batting at times which have caused him to fail and Pietersen's injury woes. Blatantly obvious England are still clueless on how to do anything in one day cricket as they have always been barring the World Cup final and Champions Trophy final appearances which were more due to collective team brilliance rather than individual performances.

In one day cricket, there is an opportunity for individuals to shine, instead England uses them as some sort of match practice to adjust to local conditions .

 

[Uppercut]

England have taken 6 of their last 9 ODI series. Odd, I know. They're not as bad as they sometimes seem.

 

[analyst]

England have taken 6 of their last 9 ODI series. Odd, I know. They're not as bad as they sometimes seem.

Yes but with a lot of good fortune and inconsistency. Why else would Collingwood find himself out of a job which he is a perfect candidate for?

 

[NUFAN]

England have taken 6 of their last 9 ODI series. Odd, I know. They're not as bad as they sometimes seem.

I don't think that's true.

Australia 6-1
England 2-0 vs WI
England 3-2 vs WI
India 5-0
England 4-0 vs SA
NZ 3-1
NZ 3-1
England 3-2 vs SL
England 4-3 vs IND

so 5 from 9 or 3 from 7 (19W & 24L in the above matches).

 

[jondavluc]

Ryan McLaren and Heino Kuhn earn call-ups | South Africa Cricket News | Cricinfo.com

 

[FBU]

The selectors have also named the two South Africa A sides to play against England.

Squads

Proteas’ Standard Bank ODI squad: Graeme Smith (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Hashim Amla (Nashua Dolphins), Johan Botha (Chevrolet Warriors), Mark Boucher (Chevrolet Warriors), AB de Villiers (Nashua Titans), JP Duminy (Nashua Cape Cobras), Jacques Kallis (Chevrolet Warriors), Charl Langeveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Albie Morkel (Nashua Titans), Wayne Parnell (Chevrolet Warriors), Alviro Petersen (bizhub Highveld Lions), Dale Steyn (Nashua Titans), Lonwabo Tsotsobe (Chevrolet Warriors), Roelof van der Merwe (Nashua Titans).

Proteas’ Standard Bank Pro20 squad: Graeme Smith (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Yusuf Abdulla (Nashua Dolphins), Loots Bosman (Nashua Dolphins), Johan Botha (Chevrolet Warriors), Mark Boucher (Chevrolet Warriors), AB de Villiers (Nashua Titans), JP Duminy (Nashua Cape Cobras), Jacques Kallis (Chevrolet Warriors), Heino Kuhn (Nashua Titans), Charl Langeveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Albie Morkel (Nashua Titans), Wayne Parnell (Chevrolet Warriors), Dale Steyn (Nashua Titans), Roelof van der Merwe (Nashua Titans).


South Africa A 50 overs squad: Hashim Amla (Nashua Dolphins, capt), Henry Davids (Nashua Cape Cobras), CJ de Villiers (Diamond Eagles), Dean Elgar (Diamond Eagles), Heino Kuhn (Nashua Titans), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Morne Morkel (Nashua Titans), Robin Peterson (Nashua Cape Cobras), Rilee Rossouw (Diamond Eagles), Rusty Theron (Chevrolet Warriors), Lonwabo Tsotsobe (Chevrolet Warriors), Vaughn van Jaarsveld (bizhub Highveld Lions).

South Africa A 20 overs squad: Justin Ontong (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Yusuf Abdulla (Nashua Dolphins), Loots Bosman (Nashua Dolphins), Henry Davids (Nashua Cape Cobras), CJ de Villiers (Diamond Eagles), Rory Kleinveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Heino Kuhn (Nashua Titans), Morne Morkel (Nashua Titans), Rilee Rossouw (Diamond Eagles), Rusty Theron (Chevrolet Warriors), Thandi Tshabalala (Diamond Eagles), Vaughn van Jaarsveld (bizhub Highveld Lions).

 

[Uppercut]

I don't think that's true.

Australia 6-1
England 2-0 vs WI
England 3-2 vs WI
India 5-0
England 4-0 vs SA
NZ 3-1
NZ 3-1
England 3-2 vs SL
England 4-3 vs IND

so 5 from 9 or 3 from 7 (19W & 24L in the above matches).

6 from 11, I was thinking. Missed the Natwest series. Need to tidy up my counting skills.

It still doesn't justify the abuse they get at home nor the excessive patronising everyone else gives them.

 

[four_or_six]

6 from 11, I was thinking. Missed the Natwest series. Need to tidy up my counting skills.

It still doesn't justify the abuse they get at home nor the excessive patronising everyone else gives them.

That's what you get with English sporting teams though, unfortunately. It's like making the quarter final of the football world cup made out as being a disaster.

 

[Woodster]

Disagree with your defense of Bell, he has had more opportunities than many other cricketers have had at international cricket. He has played almost 50 tests, quite a lot of one days, more or less a settled role at 1/2/3 in the one day arena and at 3-5 in the tests. I have given up on his lazy elegance.

Collingwood is an enigma, while being the best English one day player, he also shirks away from responsibility at the very first opportunity. You would think someone with as much experience as Collingwood would be playing at 3 or 4, but he is still playing at 5, hardly befitting a player who is the best English batsman in the one day arena given the overeliance on Strauss's batting at times which have caused him to fail and Pietersen's injury woes. Blatantly obvious England are still clueless on how to do anything in one day cricket as they have always been barring the World Cup final and Champions Trophy final appearances which were more due to collective team brilliance rather than individual performances.

In one day cricket, there is an opportunity for individuals to shine, instead England uses them as some sort of match practice to adjust to local conditions .

It isn't so much a strong case for Bell, certainly in terms of ODI cricket, Test cricket I would make more of a case. I was suggesting a possibility that his role may not have necessarily been clearly defined, judging by where he bats, and how at times, how he plays. I am not saying he should be an automatic limited-overs selection.

I would question whether Collingwood shies away from responsibility in the batting line-up, I thought he looked excellent at 4 during the Champs Trophy while KP was out. Also, the batting order is generally left to the skipper, and although he had brief spell doing it himself, they must feel that his best position is 5.

I would certainly say that Tests are more important and, if at times, the one-day games may occasionally be used to get the Test players adjusted to conditions due to a lack of warm-up games. I'm all for it.

 

[popepouri]

Big changes in the SA ODI squad.

Gibbs and Ntini are out and Virus and Kuhn are the replacements.

They will open with Kallis and Smith, AB and Duminy moves to 3 and 4 respectively with number 5 position possibly going to Virus. They going to play Albie as a batsman at 6.

Not sure what the bowling lineup is going to be.

Proteas’ ODI squad: Graeme Smith (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Hashim Amla (Nashua Dolphins), Johan Botha (Chevrolet Warriors), Mark Boucher (Chevrolet Warriors), AB de Villiers (Nashua Titans), JP Duminy (Nashua Cape Cobras), Jacques Kallis (Chevrolet Warriors), Charl Langeveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Albie Morkel (Nashua Titans), Wayne Parnell (Chevrolet Warriors), Alviro Petersen (bizhub Highveld Lions), Dale Steyn (Nashua Titans), Lonwabo Tsotsobe (Chevrolet Warriors), Roelof van der Merwe (Nashua Titans).

Pro20 squad: Graeme Smith (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Yusuf Abdulla (Nashua Dolphins), Loots Bosman (Nashua Dolphins), Johan Botha (Chevrolet Warriors), Mark Boucher (Chevrolet Warriors), AB de Villiers (Nashua Titans), JP Duminy (Nashua Cape Cobras), Jacques Kallis (Chevrolet Warriors), Heino Kuhn (Nashua Titans), Charl Langeveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Albie Morkel (Nashua Titans), Wayne Parnell (Chevrolet Warriors), Dale Steyn (Nashua Titans), Roelof van der Merwe (Nashua Titans).

 

[steds]

Heino Kuhn is an unfamiliar name. Anybody know anything about him?

 

[popepouri]

Heino Kuhn is an unfamiliar name. Anybody know anything about him?

Tipped as Boucher's replacement when he retires. More a batsman who can keep well but i see him doing well in Tests than in the shorter formats.

 

[SeamUp]

The selectors have also named the two South Africa A sides to play against England.

Squads

Proteas’ Standard Bank ODI squad: Graeme Smith (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Hashim Amla (Nashua Dolphins), Johan Botha (Chevrolet Warriors), Mark Boucher (Chevrolet Warriors), AB de Villiers (Nashua Titans), JP Duminy (Nashua Cape Cobras), Jacques Kallis (Chevrolet Warriors), Charl Langeveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Albie Morkel (Nashua Titans), Wayne Parnell (Chevrolet Warriors), Alviro Petersen (bizhub Highveld Lions), Dale Steyn (Nashua Titans), Lonwabo Tsotsobe (Chevrolet Warriors), Roelof van der Merwe (Nashua Titans).

Proteas’ Standard Bank Pro20 squad: Graeme Smith (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Yusuf Abdulla (Nashua Dolphins), Loots Bosman (Nashua Dolphins), Johan Botha (Chevrolet Warriors), Mark Boucher (Chevrolet Warriors), AB de Villiers (Nashua Titans), JP Duminy (Nashua Cape Cobras), Jacques Kallis (Chevrolet Warriors), Heino Kuhn (Nashua Titans), Charl Langeveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Albie Morkel (Nashua Titans), Wayne Parnell (Chevrolet Warriors), Dale Steyn (Nashua Titans), Roelof van der Merwe (Nashua Titans).


South Africa A 50 overs squad: Hashim Amla (Nashua Dolphins, capt), Henry Davids (Nashua Cape Cobras), CJ de Villiers (Diamond Eagles), Dean Elgar (Diamond Eagles), Heino Kuhn (Nashua Titans), Ryan McLaren (Diamond Eagles), Morne Morkel (Nashua Titans), Robin Peterson (Nashua Cape Cobras), Rilee Rossouw (Diamond Eagles), Rusty Theron (Chevrolet Warriors), Lonwabo Tsotsobe (Chevrolet Warriors), Vaughn van Jaarsveld (bizhub Highveld Lions).

South Africa A 20 overs squad: Justin Ontong (Nashua Cape Cobras, capt), Yusuf Abdulla (Nashua Dolphins), Loots Bosman (Nashua Dolphins), Henry Davids (Nashua Cape Cobras), CJ de Villiers (Diamond Eagles), Rory Kleinveldt (Nashua Cape Cobras), Heino Kuhn (Nashua Titans), Morne Morkel (Nashua Titans), Rilee Rossouw (Diamond Eagles), Rusty Theron (Chevrolet Warriors), Thandi Tshabalala (Diamond Eagles), Vaughn van Jaarsveld (bizhub Highveld Lions).

Good players to watch out for in bold in the 50-over 'A' team. Of course you know about Amla, McLaren and Morne Morkel.