*Official* English Football Season 2009-2010

[BoyBrumby]

The precedent had already been made. It's what Gerrard assumed the danger to have been and whether that was reasonable. I have been in enough bars/clubs to know that when someone is coming at you, you better run or throw a punch. The physicality lasted about 3-5 seconds. It's hard to argue that it was premeditated or that the attack was of an excessive kind, which would make self-defense look quite silly or "thin". Regardless, for some the mud will stick, and it really didn't matter about the evidence.

I guess for you, you don't believe he didn't see it, whereas I can reasonably take that he genuinely might not have.

I take you have seen the footage? There's no way the DJ was "coming at" Gerrard, both were already standing having a frank and open exchange of opinions. The victim offered no violence that I could see, he was pre-emptively struck by John Doran's elbow at which point Gerrard waded in. Pre-meditated? No. Excessive? Arguably. Self-defence? Not, as the prosecution lawyer said, in a hundred years.

The case falls, as often seems to happen in such high profile cases, on the jury failing to distinguish between doubt (which there always is) and reasonable doubt.

 

[marc71178]

And furthermore, you can't seriously tell me that you think an every day guy like me or you would get off using the same defence to the same charge?

If it were an every day guy, would it even have gone to court?

 

[GIMH]

Don't know if anyone's seen this before, but seriously wtf.

???

I can only speak of my experience with English fans and the posts I read on various English media; but they seem to cherish their stars as club players and absolutely hammer them as national team players.

Well their performances for their club sides are generally much better than they manage for England. Gerrard is the perfect example. Most people (Scaly and Man U fans aside) think that he is a bloody fantastic midfielder when he plays for Liverpool, but he has never really scaled the same heights for England, least not when it matters anyway.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

???

What?

 

[GIMH]

basically sharing your reaction

 

[S Chanderpaul]

It was a joke on a mates stag night wasn't it?

Sure I remember reading about it a few weeks ago.

 

[roseboy64]

Yeah pretty much.

 

[GIMH]

I can see you two getting on well during next season, just looking at your avatars

 

[Agent TBY]

It's Rose. I can see him getting along well with everyone.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

It was a joke on a mates stag night wasn't it?

Sure I remember reading about it a few weeks ago.

Haha fair enough, just stumbled accross it with no story, nearly spewed.

 

[GIMH]

If aussie sees that without knowing the whole story he'll be beyond devastated

 

[sledger]

If it were an every day guy, would it even have gone to court?

Despite what Kaz woud have you believe there is a good chance it would, I've sat in on several trials for incidents not dissimilar to this.

 

[Ikki]

I take you have seen the footage? There's no way the DJ was "coming at" Gerrard, both were already standing having a frank and open exchange of opinions. The victim offered no violence that I could see, he was pre-emptively struck by John Doran's elbow at which point Gerrard waded in. Pre-meditated? No. Excessive? Arguably. Self-defence? Not, as the prosecution lawyer said, in a hundred years.

Sorry, again disagree. The man fell towards Gerrard. How in those few seconds is a, pretty much, drunk Gerrard going to decipher, especially in that lighting, that the man had already been struck and that his movement towards Gerrard wasn't a voluntary one? If it wasn't for Gerrard admitting he had even hit any blows the question would still be up there. You can't tell who is who from the CCTV.

The case falls, as often seems to happen in such high profile cases, on the jury failing to distinguish between doubt (which there always is) and reasonable doubt.

Judges help the jury to decipher what that is and there are legal tests to determine what constitutes a reasonable doubt.

 

[Ikki]

Well their performances for their club sides are generally much better than they manage for England. Gerrard is the perfect example. Most people (Scaly and Man U fans aside) think that he is a bloody fantastic midfielder when he plays for Liverpool, but he has never really scaled the same heights for England, least not when it matters anyway.

Yeah, but they don't seem to accept what is pretty much common sense. Take Gerrard; who for most of his English caps has been played out of position, on the right, even in defense, but mostly as a holding midfielder. One can't expect the same rampaging Gerrard in such positions. In Liverpool, Gerrard is the centre of everything. In England, he has been used mostly to plug gaps. The fact that he has roughly as many goals as Lampard yet Frank has played mostly in his preferred position should say something.

What I mean to say is; if they could argue that he isn't effective in Liverpool they would. But he's done so much to make that view marginal that they concede it and bash him on where he has lacked - forgetting that almost everybody in that team have lacked.

As quick as the English fans seem to create a hero out of nothing, they bring them down just as fast as they hit the summit.

 

[GIMH]

I don't care either way tbh, just giving you the general opinion. One thing I will say is that he made his name for himself at Liverpool as a holding midfielder, that was what he played as under Houllier, and the same criticism of his international form existed back then.

 

[Ikki]

I don't care either way tbh, just giving you the general opinion. One thing I will say is that he made his name for himself at Liverpool as a holding midfielder, that was what he played as under Houllier, and the same criticism of his international form existed back then.

Well, Gerrard was a fine player as DM and if the same standard was being used I'd agree. But the Gerrard that became one of the best in the world had a free-role under Benitez. The Gerrard that could single-handedly lead a side to success came to being in Benitez's first season and that's where I feel people are making the comparisons. And IIRC Gerrard was injured for England during Houllier's reign, missing out on WC02.

I guess it is all opinion. But that's the general vibe I get. Take Rooney. I think he is a world-class player and deserves comparison with the very best. But you hear him regularly said to be overrated. It's non-sense. I believe amongst English fans, if people were to put a vote a lot of them would vote for David Silva, for example, over Rooney. But Rooney IMO is much superior.

 

[GIMH]

Gerrard went to Euro 2004 though, okay Houllier had been sacked but he was the club manager he had been playing for at the time. I do agree that he became better once Benitez set him free, but he was being cited as the best in the world in 03-04, believe me mate, I know a lot of Liverpool fans and they have been saying it for years. Not all of them (as he obviously wasn't the best in the world by then) but it was a recurring theme.

RE Rooney - that's because he's a ****

 

[BoyBrumby]

Sorry, again disagree. The man fell towards Gerrard. How in those few seconds is a, pretty much, drunk Gerrard going to decipher, especially in that lighting, that the man had already been struck and that his movement towards Gerrard wasn't a voluntary one? If it wasn't for Gerrard admitting he had even hit any blows the question would still be up there. You can't tell who is who from the CCTV.

& that's pretty much what I meant by "thin", which is the best that can be said for it. Your version of events is possible (just), but so unlikely as to be bordering on insulting to the intelligence. The bloke reeled backwards from the force of the elbow and looked to be struggling to keep his balance when Gerrard waded in. As for not being able to identify him? Well, the pictures are grainy, but it's clearly him and he is one of the most recognisable faces in the country, particularly on Merseyside. Any of the witnesses would've removed any ambiguity.

I'll put the obvious question to you: why, when Gerrard was the second man to attack the DJ, did five others, who presumably were less culpable, admit to affray?

 

[Scaly piscine]

Gerrard isn't and never has been one of the best in the world. He's a good club player, the rest is hype from LBC Sport. When I've seen him play in Champions League games he's been average, not noticeably better than the other 21 players on the pitch. At international level where the games are a bit different he shouldn't be first choice given everyone is fit. Needless to say he's been noticeably poor at that level.

 

[GIMH]

LBC Sport?