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*Official* Second Test at Lords

tooextracool

International Coach
Reckon Harmison's pace and bounce is rather overated myself. Broad is pretty much as fast as Harmison, who can only bowl at 90+mph for 1 or 2 spells at the max before going down to low to mid 80s, Broad can keep up 90mph for 3 or 4 spells. Don't really rate Broad all that much as a bowler, but he is probably just as likely to get wickets throughout a match as Harmison is.
Pace is irrelevant, its what you do with it. Harmison on a track with a bit of pace is consistently more awkward, gets more bounce and poses more of a wicket-taking threat than Broad. It doesnt matter whether they both bowl at 90 mph along with Anderson, they are different types of bowlers.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Onions should still be ahead of Harmison for me as he's been outbowling him all season, but both are so far ahead of Sidebottom that if he gets in there needs to be a serious injury crisis IMO.
Yes. I dont care if Onions is bowling on one foot, but he has to play at Lords. There about a billion reasons for why he should be in the side for this test, not least because he has 21 FC wickets at a shade over 24 on that ground, took a 5fer there on debut against the touring Windies, has the sort of bowling style that would make him most likely out of all the bowlers to be able to utilize the slope and lets not forget the fact that he has a better FC record this season than Harmison.

The England bowling in the last test was crying out for someone who could play the enforcer role like Hilfenhaus did for Australia. Broad was supposed to play that role but he failed miserably and Freddie needs to be given license to bowl short aggressive bursts rather than bowl at one end for most of the day like he used to be able to.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Hmm, Broad bowled pretty poorly all test, but at least he shows intent all the way through his spell. Put it this way, I'd rather have Broad bowling quickly and with intent all through the day, posing a medium to low wicket threat than Harmison posing a high wicket threat early on and then just getting clobbered. Not sure I'd pick Broad anyway TBH, but I certainly wouldn't pick Harmison.
Yeah, he shows intent in the same way a boy band member shows his toughness. Still not convincing.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Flintoff's injury just highlighting the utterly inept captaincy in the 1st Test from Andrew "I'll give everyone one fifth of the overs regardless" Strauss.
 

Uppercut

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No matter what way you look at it, there is absolutely no evidence of it. Broad may end up becoming better than Harmison, but at the moment, his record is considerably worse and even at best he is a mere support bowler to Anderson and co. England need firepower, and whilst I think Harmison will struggle away from home, he is a better attacking option in England than Broad at the moment.
I'm calling bull****. Harmison hasn't even had a half-decent game for England in three years. Last time they bowled together, in the West Indies, Broad was so much better it was embarrassing for Harmy. His overall record will tell you how good Harmison used to be, but some English fans are intent on pretending we're still in 2005 and he's still an international standard bowler.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
We English are so unsporting though it would be just typical to start putting it about that Flintoff was knackered when in truth he's fully fit and raring to go
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I'm calling bull****. Harmison hasn't even had a half-decent game for England in three years. Last time they bowled together, in the West Indies, Broad was so much better it was embarrassing for Harmy. His overall record will tell you how good Harmison used to be, but some English fans are intent on pretending we're still in 2005 and he's still an international standard bowler.
Err Harmison has had a few good games over the past few years, although its not often reflected in his figures. Not a lot of games, but that's also due to a combination of reasons which includes poor selection (dropping him everytime hes had one poor test match over the past year) and the pitches that hes played on. I don't deny that on flat lifeless subcontinental style pitches that Broad is a better bowler (hence why I suggested Broad be picked over Harmison at Cardiff, heck even Harmison was smart enough to realize that) but on any pitch where Harmison is able to get the ball to bounce above waist high, Harmison is consistently and considerably more of a threat than Broad ATM.

Broad has never ever shown the ability to take wickets by the bucket, even on the most seam friendly wickets hes struggled to get more than 2 to 3 wickets. Hes not a strike bowler whatsoever and until hes able to learn the ability to seam and swing hes not going to be able to take wickets at less than 30-35 a piece. Broad is being picked with one eye on the future but it doesnt change the fact that at the moment hes not international class just yet and hes just there because of the potential that most see in him.
 

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Harmison's "good bowling" isn't reflected in his figures because it's just an illusion of good bowling. He just bowls short and with very little movement, hits batsmen a few times and makes them play and miss to back-of-a-length balls occasionally but he doesn't get them out. He might get the crowd going or make batsmen mildly uncomfortable (and this is when he's bowling well, on a pitch that suits him, when the crowd are on his side, when he's fully fit, when he's bowling his first spell of the match because he's took crocked to bowl any more, when there are no imminent births in his family and when Neptune and Jupiter are aligned) but he doesn't take wickets.

By all means, pick Harmison again. He'll take 1/150 for the match, his critics will say, "that should be Harmison's last chance" and his apologists will blame the pitch, and Harmison will be swiftly dropped for the following game, only to be recalled a few months later. It's happened every fifth England game for the past three years.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Harmison's "good bowling" isn't reflected in his figures because it's just an illusion of good bowling. He just bowls short and with very little movement, hits batsmen a few times and makes them play and miss to back-of-a-length balls occasionally but he doesn't get them out. He might get the crowd going or make batsmen mildly uncomfortable (and this is when he's bowling well, on a pitch that suits him, when the crowd are on his side, when he's fully fit, when he's bowling his first spell of the match because he's took crocked to bowl any more, when there are no imminent births in his family and when Neptune and Jupiter are aligned) but he doesn't take wickets.
If you honestly think that his performances at the Oval last year where not instrumental in England winning, then you must be seriously kidding yourself. The whole game changed from the very moment that he bowled his first ball and not once in that series did things look remotely similar. That he took his wickets at 30 a piece is irrelevant because without him Anderson would have been half as effective as he was that test. The reason btw why I bring that test up was because it was the last time he played a test on English soil (and the only test hes played since 2007)

As far as his wicket-taking is concerned, I'd like to see him on a half decent English pitch first, not those dead as a dodo, subcontinental lifeless tracks that we've seen for most of the winter.

By all means, pick Harmison again. He'll take 1/150 for the match, his critics will say, "that should be Harmison's last chance" and his apologists will blame the pitch, and Harmison will be swiftly dropped for the following game, only to be recalled a few months later. It's happened every fifth England game for the past three years.
Do you realize that the reason he is still being considered because everyone else including Broad have failed to take their chances and have all generally struggled at the international level? Not one person on this forum is going to go on and rave about how great Harmison is. The fact is bowlers like Broad have been given opportunities and not made the most of them that the sad truth is that there is no better option but to go back to Harmison.

Yes' Id much rather take Harmison's 1/150 if it means that there is even that 0.0000001% chance that he'll take 7/12 then I would take 2/150 which we know with certainty is what we are going to get from Stuart Broad.
 

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If you honestly think that his performances at the Oval last year where not instrumental in England winning, then you must be seriously kidding yourself. The whole game changed from the very moment that he bowled his first ball and not once in that series did things look remotely similar. That he took his wickets at 30 a piece is irrelevant because without him Anderson would have been half as effective as he was that test. The reason btw why I bring that test up was because it was the last time he played a test on English soil (and the only test hes played since 2007)

As far as his wicket-taking is concerned, I'd like to see him on a half decent English pitch first, not those dead as a dodo, subcontinental lifeless tracks that we've seen for most of the winter.
Took four wickets in a dead rubber. Bowled one good spell to get Smith and Amla out then dropped his pace in every other spell in the match.

Do you realize that the reason he is still being considered because everyone else including Broad have failed to take their chances and have all generally struggled at the international level? Not one person on this forum is going to go on and rave about how great Harmison is. The fact is bowlers like Broad have been given opportunities and not made the most of them that the sad truth is that there is no better option but to go back to Harmison.

Yes' Id much rather take Harmison's 1/150 if it means that there is even that 0.0000001% chance that he'll take 7/12 then I would take 2/150 which we know with certainty is what we are going to get from Stuart Broad.
Broad made Harmison look like a little girl rolling pies along the ground in the two matches they played together in the West Indies (thereby leading to Harmison's dropping, after which Broad continued to bowl better than Harmison has since 2006). In ODIs, he's been good for years. In the T20 World Cup, he was excellent. Broad has had one bad game since November, where he took no wickets (hardly exactly unique amongst England's bowlers over the past five days) and suddenly he's useless? Not having that.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Based on what exactly? Can't be his form of the last 12 months (and more importantly this season).
No just that based on recent evidence, it is clear Harmo in English conditons once it helpul can be dangerous.

You just had to see the warm-up game, Harmison looked wayyy more threatening than Onions.


Onions should still be ahead of Harmison for me as he's been outbowling him all season, but both are so far ahead of Sidebottom that if he gets in there needs to be a serious injury crisis IMO.
Onions bowling performance although he deserved to be picked, unfortunately i dont see him being a serious wicket-taking threat. He doesn't swing or seam the ball, the most he can do is be a defensive stock bowler. In a potential 5-man attack Broad can do his role.

On Sidebottom, although its clear also he would be more dangerous to the AUS than Onions. It would be hard to pick him ahead of Onions ATM no doubt. I have my doubts that his injury woes is that bad, i just fear Flower & the selectors are just robotic in their selections right now.

The best ENG bowling attack for the remainder of the Ashes that would really test AUS would be Anderson/Sidebottom/Flintoff/Harmison/Swann.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Ha damnn, surely ENG have to call up another batsman even if none gives confidence to that squad. They can't be seriously thinking of batting Braod @ 7, Swann @ 8.
 

Scaly piscine

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Onions bowling performance although he deserved to be picked, unfortunately i dont see him being a serious wicket-taking threat. He doesn't swing or seam the ball, the most he can do is be a defensive stock bowler. In a potential 5-man attack Broad can do his role.
What a complete and total load of bollocks.
 

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