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The New Zealand Test Team-The Way Forward
- Thread starter Howsie
- Start date
Flem274*
123/5
Heh, so annoyed we can't just roll out:
Guptill
Vincent (not an opener but you know, its this game again)
Flynn
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin/O'Brien/Martin
Tuffey
Bond
Tbh, I think part of the reason we're a bit ****ed atm is we have a completely different team to what the selectors thought we'd have a few years back as well. But then we had the iCL and failures.
How
Vincent
Sinclair
Fulton
Marshall/McMillan
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Tuffey/Martin
Bond
Guptill
Vincent (not an opener but you know, its this game again)
Flynn
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin/O'Brien/Martin
Tuffey
Bond
Tbh, I think part of the reason we're a bit ****ed atm is we have a completely different team to what the selectors thought we'd have a few years back as well. But then we had the iCL and failures.
How
Vincent
Sinclair
Fulton
Marshall/McMillan
Oram
McCullum
Vettori
Franklin
Tuffey/Martin
Bond
Halfpast_Yellow
U19 Vice-Captain
Haha!
My test team:
1. Guptill
2. How
3. Flynn
4. Ryder
5. Taylor
6 McCullum
7. Vettori
8. Tuffey
9. Bond
10. O'Brien
11. Martin.
12. Cumming
13. Patel
14. Franklin
15. Southee
My test team:
1. Guptill
2. How
3. Flynn
4. Ryder
5. Taylor
6 McCullum
7. Vettori
8. Tuffey
9. Bond
10. O'Brien
11. Martin.
12. Cumming
13. Patel
14. Franklin
15. Southee
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Mike Atherton?
Howsie
International Captain
How's average is 23, and he has played about 20 tests. I think he has proven he isn't test class.Mike Atherton?
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don't disagree with you on this one. How's only advantage over other failures is that he's younger and a better fielder. Fed up with his ability to time a perfect shot straight to point.
Halfpast_Yellow
U19 Vice-Captain
We don't have any test class openers, fact. The cupboard is bare. There is no one else. Any suggestion you make can be met with /lol in some way or another. Aaron Redmond? deadset joke he was picked in the first place TBH.
With How you feel the problems are less lack of technical ability, and more mental. He's been established in the set-up, has age on his side, and is a good fielder. The only other serious contender is Cumming, but I take How before him because I feel How is more technically solid, more time on his side, better fielder, more established, etc.
But sure go ahead and keep on trying player after player after player hoping one will magically transform into a test class opener averaging 40+.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
This is perhaps the most talented batting line I have seen from New Zealand... Just in terms of raw talent.. Perhaps they could do with a Fleming or a Richardson type player which hopefully Flynn can become.. But with Guptill, Taylor and Ryder, they have potentially 3 of their all time great batsmen at the same time.. I have not seen another New Zealand side with so much batting talent in their top 5 in my time of watching them...
Ideally, IF they can find a good second opener, the middle order of Flynn, Taylor and Ryder with McCullum and Vettori and maybe Franklin to follow would make a very good batting side.. They need to play more tests and they need to bat for time a bit more and tighten up their techniques but in terms of sheer raw talent, their batting side SHOULD go on to be much better than their bowling side.
In bowling, Jeets Patel should play every game and they can rotate their 3 seamers.. Ideally, Martin, O'Brien and Franklin should do the job.. They seem more reliable than the others they have tried. They may not bowl out sides for 150 but they can definitely keep sides to around 350 and then their talented batting line up can hopefully deliver the goods... Add their usually impressive ground fielding, I will be very surprised if this team doesn't reach the top half of the world rankings in 3 years time... Touchwood, no injuries, retriements ICL stuff...
Ideally, IF they can find a good second opener, the middle order of Flynn, Taylor and Ryder with McCullum and Vettori and maybe Franklin to follow would make a very good batting side.. They need to play more tests and they need to bat for time a bit more and tighten up their techniques but in terms of sheer raw talent, their batting side SHOULD go on to be much better than their bowling side.
In bowling, Jeets Patel should play every game and they can rotate their 3 seamers.. Ideally, Martin, O'Brien and Franklin should do the job.. They seem more reliable than the others they have tried. They may not bowl out sides for 150 but they can definitely keep sides to around 350 and then their talented batting line up can hopefully deliver the goods... Add their usually impressive ground fielding, I will be very surprised if this team doesn't reach the top half of the world rankings in 3 years time... Touchwood, no injuries, retriements ICL stuff...
_Ed_
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Neither have I, which makes our capitulations in Hamilton and Wellington all the more frustrating.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Is this second team your team of failures/ ICLs/ injuries? Bit harsh to include McCullum and Vettori in there!
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
New Zealand have some of the same problems India had when Tendulkar took over as captain for the first time. If anything they have a couple of additional issues and a couple of plusses over that indian side.
- India were without a good opening pair (batting) so are New Zealand.
- India had a modest new ball attack - so has New Zealand.
- India were struggling with the captaincy issue and chose to make the seniormost cricketer the captain by default so have the Kiwis.
Kiwis have another couple of Issues which India was better placed with. India had Kumble while Vettori, despite his tally of wickets is not a force as a bowler.
In addition India had a very experienced middle order while Kiwis middle order, though promising, is raw.
The advantage Kiwis have are first and foremost their fielding (and running between wickets which goes hand in hand with fielding but is a bigger PLUS in the limited over game) and the spirit of the side. India were ragged on the field and a house divided with individuals rather than team goals being the prime target.
So how are the Kiwis going to address their five problems that I have listed. Here they are once again.
What can be done ?
Batting - Openers
One doesn't know enough about the Kiwi domestic cricket to talk of who might open but this needs to be addressed very quickly. I agree with some of my non-Indian friends here that Zaheer and Ishant though good are not the deadliest bowlers on the planet. Things can get worse against a real top class fast bowling pair (not that there are many going around). They really should look beyond just averages and look for the basic attributes for Test openers viz solid backfoot play and defense and good technique against lateral movement. Its not certain that they may succeed immediately but with the conditions as they prevail in New Zealand there must be young players who encounter such bowling at the top level and have the requisite potential.
2. Bowling
O'Brien has potential and should be encouraged by making part of the spearhead.
Martin has experience but is aging.
New Zealand will have a great boost if Bond can come back. Irrespective of whether one thinks of him as a great or not, he will elevate this attack and New Zealand do not have the luxury of keeping him out if fit. Of course, if he cant make it for whatever reasons he cant and thats that.
I am not sure I understand why Ryder is treated as if he is Yuvraj's counter part in the Kiwi side as a part time bowler. This guy might surprise us with what he can do for his side with more trust by his skipper and a better defined role.
Jeetan Patel may not have a big off-break but in any event even Vettori doesn't turn much on most wickets and on batting tracks, he is a much better bowler. Why should he be out unless the alternatives are better.
- India were without a good opening pair (batting) so are New Zealand.
- India had a modest new ball attack - so has New Zealand.
- India were struggling with the captaincy issue and chose to make the seniormost cricketer the captain by default so have the Kiwis.
Kiwis have another couple of Issues which India was better placed with. India had Kumble while Vettori, despite his tally of wickets is not a force as a bowler.
In addition India had a very experienced middle order while Kiwis middle order, though promising, is raw.
The advantage Kiwis have are first and foremost their fielding (and running between wickets which goes hand in hand with fielding but is a bigger PLUS in the limited over game) and the spirit of the side. India were ragged on the field and a house divided with individuals rather than team goals being the prime target.
So how are the Kiwis going to address their five problems that I have listed. Here they are once again.
1. Opening batsmen
2. Strike power in pace as well as spin
3. Experience in the middle order
4. A Leader not just a Captain
2. Strike power in pace as well as spin
3. Experience in the middle order
4. A Leader not just a Captain
What can be done ?
Batting - Openers
One doesn't know enough about the Kiwi domestic cricket to talk of who might open but this needs to be addressed very quickly. I agree with some of my non-Indian friends here that Zaheer and Ishant though good are not the deadliest bowlers on the planet. Things can get worse against a real top class fast bowling pair (not that there are many going around). They really should look beyond just averages and look for the basic attributes for Test openers viz solid backfoot play and defense and good technique against lateral movement. Its not certain that they may succeed immediately but with the conditions as they prevail in New Zealand there must be young players who encounter such bowling at the top level and have the requisite potential.
2. Bowling
O'Brien has potential and should be encouraged by making part of the spearhead.
Martin has experience but is aging.
New Zealand will have a great boost if Bond can come back. Irrespective of whether one thinks of him as a great or not, he will elevate this attack and New Zealand do not have the luxury of keeping him out if fit. Of course, if he cant make it for whatever reasons he cant and thats that.
I am not sure I understand why Ryder is treated as if he is Yuvraj's counter part in the Kiwi side as a part time bowler. This guy might surprise us with what he can do for his side with more trust by his skipper and a better defined role.
Jeetan Patel may not have a big off-break but in any event even Vettori doesn't turn much on most wickets and on batting tracks, he is a much better bowler. Why should he be out unless the alternatives are better.
Finally, New Zealand need a world class bowling coach. I cant believe that they would not have done much better if they had just pitched on an average 18 inches further up than they did against India and the coach needs to take the responsibility of that, particularly in this young side. Of course so does the skipper but we have already said he needs to step aside.
3. Experience in the Middle Order
You cant do much about experience as far as players IN the side are concerned but I think if Fleming comes back he helps in this as well as the leadership issue.
McCullam must bat higher than he is doing today. He is wasted. Fleming and McCullum will bring some experience and then if, Oram or Styris can discover some form, maybe it will help having another person to count on.
4. Leadership
Vettori is a nice guy but nice guys are not great crisis managers and New Zealand cricket is in crisis. Dravid was not a failure as a skipper because he got the job after Ganguly had been at it. He would have been completely at sea if he had come in when Ganguly did first - and he is as nice a guy as any. Vettori is even 'nicer' in a not such a positive way as far as leadership is concerned and he is timid.
Fleming has to become the Kiwi Alan Border. This is not about his age and his batting abilities. It is much more than that. Border did much more than just bat for Australia. He kept the flame alive for Taylor to light it further ablaze. I am not convinced that Fleming does not have a HUGE role in the future of Kiwi cricket and its an on-field role. And I do believe, though thats not the prime factor, that he will more than justify his place in this side as a batsman too.
Its not going to happen overnight but New Zealand cricket can make a strong come back. For that to happen action needs to be taken now. Status Quo is not an option.
3. Experience in the Middle Order
You cant do much about experience as far as players IN the side are concerned but I think if Fleming comes back he helps in this as well as the leadership issue.
McCullam must bat higher than he is doing today. He is wasted. Fleming and McCullum will bring some experience and then if, Oram or Styris can discover some form, maybe it will help having another person to count on.
4. Leadership
Vettori is a nice guy but nice guys are not great crisis managers and New Zealand cricket is in crisis. Dravid was not a failure as a skipper because he got the job after Ganguly had been at it. He would have been completely at sea if he had come in when Ganguly did first - and he is as nice a guy as any. Vettori is even 'nicer' in a not such a positive way as far as leadership is concerned and he is timid.
Fleming has to become the Kiwi Alan Border. This is not about his age and his batting abilities. It is much more than that. Border did much more than just bat for Australia. He kept the flame alive for Taylor to light it further ablaze. I am not convinced that Fleming does not have a HUGE role in the future of Kiwi cricket and its an on-field role. And I do believe, though thats not the prime factor, that he will more than justify his place in this side as a batsman too.
Its not going to happen overnight but New Zealand cricket can make a strong come back. For that to happen action needs to be taken now. Status Quo is not an option.
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SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Teams have made startling selections of captains in the past and been pleasantly surprised. India selected Pataudi Jr as vice captain at 21 and he had to lead the side due to injury to his skipper. He remains India's greatest skipper by most common consent.
Its a fallacy to look at only the senior players for leadership. If Fleming isn't available there may be others. I don tknow but what one has seen of Vettori is not very inspiring (from this distance) I am afraid. Its an opinion
Athlai
Not Terrible
NZ Batting in the 2000s
Year - Matches - 100's - 50's - average
2000 - 9 - 6 - 19 - 27.86
Top 6 Scorers: McMillan, Astle, Cairns, Fleming, Sinclair, Richardson
2001 - 8 - 9 - 18 - 39.06
Richardson, McMillan, Fleming, Sinclair, Astle, Bell
2002 - 8 - 3 - 17 - 24.42
Richardson, Astle, Fleming, Vincent, McMillan, Styris
2003 - 6 - 8 - 14 - 35.57
Fleming, Richardson, Vettori, Styris, McMillan, Oram
2004 - 10 - 9 - 20 - 33.05
Fleming, Oram, Styris, McCullum, Richardson, Cairns
2005 - 7 - 7 - 12 - 33.97
Vincent, Astle, H Marshall, Fleming, Vettori, McCullum
2006 - 8 - 4 - 11 - 25.93
Fleming, Vettori, Astle, Franklin, McCullum, Styris
2007 - 2 -0 - 1 - 15.70
Fleming, Vettori, McCullum, Cumming, Styris, Taylor
2008 - 14 - 6 - 35 - 27.34
Taylor, McCullum, Vettori, How, Flynn, Ryder
2009 - 3 - 6 - 4 - 33.91
Ryder, Taylor, McCullum, Vettori, Guptill, Franklin
Since 2006-7 our batting has steadily been improving from the lofty peaks of 01,03,04 and its promising to see how many centuries have been scored thus far this year. We are on the improve in this aspect of the game and I wouldn't be surprised to see our average growing as our youngsters gain experience.
The loss of Fleming was massive.
Breakdown of top 6 scorer in a year appearances:
Fleming - 8
Vettori, McCullum - 6
Richardson, Astle, Styris - 5
McMillian - 4
Taylor - 3
Vincent, Cairns, Oram, Franklin, Ryder, Sinclair - 2
Bell, How, Flynn, Guptill, Cumming, Marshall - 1
Most of our experience now comes from McCullum and Vettori, two talented, experienced yet lower order batsman. Our next most experienced batsman is Taylor who since debut has been vital to our batting fortunes, Ryder following that theme closely himself. It is sad to see that besides Richardson no opener has done better than one year for the black caps, meanwhile our great all-rounders (Cairns, Oram and Franklin) all have contributed 2 years a piece. What New Zealand needs is an anchor for Taylor and Ryder to foil their careers around, and this anchor HAS to be either Vettori or McCullum the veterans in the lineup. One of these guys has to step up and move down the order.
Bowling
year - wickets - 5WI- 10WM - average
2000 - 123 - 6 - 1 - 33.14
Top 5 wicket takers: O'Connor, Cairns, Wiseman, Martin, Vettori
2001 - 112 - 4 - 0 - 34.33
Cairns, Vettori, Tuffey, Martin, Bond
2002 - 129 - 3 - 0 - 27.67
Tuffey, Bond, Butler, Vettori, Drum
2003 - 66 - 2 - 0 - 45.15
Tuffey, Oram, Vettori, Wiseman, Butler
2004 - 144 - 10 - 2 - 39.59
Vettori, Martin, Cairns, Wiseman, Franklin
2005 - 94 - 4 - 1 - 33.75
Franklin, Martin, Vettori, Bond, Astle
2006 - 125 - 4 - 1 - 28.24
Franklin, Martin, Vettori, Bond, Mills
2007 - 23 - 1 - 0 - 43.43
Martin, Bond, Gillespie, O'Brien, Vettori
2008 - 214 - 9 - 0 - 28.70
Vettori, O'Brien, Martin, Mills, Patel
2009 - 40 - 0 - 0 - 52.75
Martin, O'Brien, Vettori, Patel, Ryder
The bowling is a little bit harder to read into, last year was arguably our best our second best year in terms of bowling figures yet 07 and 09 were dire in comparison.
Breakdown of top 5 wicket takers per year:
Vettori - 10
Martin - 8
Bond - 5
Cairns, Tuffey, Wiseman, Franklin, O'Brien - 3
Butler, Mills, Patel - 2
O'Connor, Drum, Oram, Ryder, Astle, Gillespie - 1
And here we see the Vettori-show, clearly the lynch-pin of our attack yet has his usefulness been blunted? In terms of pacers, besides Martin we've seen phenomenal success from bowlers who rock for a few years before injuring themselves, Bond, Cairns, Tuffey, Franklin.
Where is the youth here? Vettori, Martin, Franklin and O'Brien are all fine bowlers yet they are aging and Ryder isn't exactly the greatest promise to our bowlings future. We are caught in between generations, Southee still has several years to develop into full maturity and by that time he won't have a Martin or O'Brien to aid him.
Also
Bring back Tuffey.
2000's Quality Experience NZ XI
Richardson (retired aged 33)
Vincent (off the radar/ICL/personal issues, aged 30)
Fleming (retired aged 35)
Astle (retired aged 35)
Styris (retired aged 32)
McMillan (retired aged 31)
McCullum (27 years old)
Vettori (30 years old)
Franklin (28 years old)
Bond (ICL/Injuries 33 years old)
Martin (34 years old)
4 are playing.
Year - Matches - 100's - 50's - average
2000 - 9 - 6 - 19 - 27.86
Top 6 Scorers: McMillan, Astle, Cairns, Fleming, Sinclair, Richardson
2001 - 8 - 9 - 18 - 39.06
Richardson, McMillan, Fleming, Sinclair, Astle, Bell
2002 - 8 - 3 - 17 - 24.42
Richardson, Astle, Fleming, Vincent, McMillan, Styris
2003 - 6 - 8 - 14 - 35.57
Fleming, Richardson, Vettori, Styris, McMillan, Oram
2004 - 10 - 9 - 20 - 33.05
Fleming, Oram, Styris, McCullum, Richardson, Cairns
2005 - 7 - 7 - 12 - 33.97
Vincent, Astle, H Marshall, Fleming, Vettori, McCullum
2006 - 8 - 4 - 11 - 25.93
Fleming, Vettori, Astle, Franklin, McCullum, Styris
2007 - 2 -0 - 1 - 15.70
Fleming, Vettori, McCullum, Cumming, Styris, Taylor
2008 - 14 - 6 - 35 - 27.34
Taylor, McCullum, Vettori, How, Flynn, Ryder
2009 - 3 - 6 - 4 - 33.91
Ryder, Taylor, McCullum, Vettori, Guptill, Franklin
Since 2006-7 our batting has steadily been improving from the lofty peaks of 01,03,04 and its promising to see how many centuries have been scored thus far this year. We are on the improve in this aspect of the game and I wouldn't be surprised to see our average growing as our youngsters gain experience.
The loss of Fleming was massive.
Breakdown of top 6 scorer in a year appearances:
Fleming - 8
Vettori, McCullum - 6
Richardson, Astle, Styris - 5
McMillian - 4
Taylor - 3
Vincent, Cairns, Oram, Franklin, Ryder, Sinclair - 2
Bell, How, Flynn, Guptill, Cumming, Marshall - 1
Most of our experience now comes from McCullum and Vettori, two talented, experienced yet lower order batsman. Our next most experienced batsman is Taylor who since debut has been vital to our batting fortunes, Ryder following that theme closely himself. It is sad to see that besides Richardson no opener has done better than one year for the black caps, meanwhile our great all-rounders (Cairns, Oram and Franklin) all have contributed 2 years a piece. What New Zealand needs is an anchor for Taylor and Ryder to foil their careers around, and this anchor HAS to be either Vettori or McCullum the veterans in the lineup. One of these guys has to step up and move down the order.
Bowling
year - wickets - 5WI- 10WM - average
2000 - 123 - 6 - 1 - 33.14
Top 5 wicket takers: O'Connor, Cairns, Wiseman, Martin, Vettori
2001 - 112 - 4 - 0 - 34.33
Cairns, Vettori, Tuffey, Martin, Bond
2002 - 129 - 3 - 0 - 27.67
Tuffey, Bond, Butler, Vettori, Drum
2003 - 66 - 2 - 0 - 45.15
Tuffey, Oram, Vettori, Wiseman, Butler
2004 - 144 - 10 - 2 - 39.59
Vettori, Martin, Cairns, Wiseman, Franklin
2005 - 94 - 4 - 1 - 33.75
Franklin, Martin, Vettori, Bond, Astle
2006 - 125 - 4 - 1 - 28.24
Franklin, Martin, Vettori, Bond, Mills
2007 - 23 - 1 - 0 - 43.43
Martin, Bond, Gillespie, O'Brien, Vettori
2008 - 214 - 9 - 0 - 28.70
Vettori, O'Brien, Martin, Mills, Patel
2009 - 40 - 0 - 0 - 52.75
Martin, O'Brien, Vettori, Patel, Ryder
The bowling is a little bit harder to read into, last year was arguably our best our second best year in terms of bowling figures yet 07 and 09 were dire in comparison.
Breakdown of top 5 wicket takers per year:
Vettori - 10
Martin - 8
Bond - 5
Cairns, Tuffey, Wiseman, Franklin, O'Brien - 3
Butler, Mills, Patel - 2
O'Connor, Drum, Oram, Ryder, Astle, Gillespie - 1
And here we see the Vettori-show, clearly the lynch-pin of our attack yet has his usefulness been blunted? In terms of pacers, besides Martin we've seen phenomenal success from bowlers who rock for a few years before injuring themselves, Bond, Cairns, Tuffey, Franklin.
Where is the youth here? Vettori, Martin, Franklin and O'Brien are all fine bowlers yet they are aging and Ryder isn't exactly the greatest promise to our bowlings future. We are caught in between generations, Southee still has several years to develop into full maturity and by that time he won't have a Martin or O'Brien to aid him.
Also
Bring back Tuffey.
2000's Quality Experience NZ XI
Richardson (retired aged 33)
Vincent (off the radar/ICL/personal issues, aged 30)
Fleming (retired aged 35)
Astle (retired aged 35)
Styris (retired aged 32)
McMillan (retired aged 31)
McCullum (27 years old)
Vettori (30 years old)
Franklin (28 years old)
Bond (ICL/Injuries 33 years old)
Martin (34 years old)
4 are playing.
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thierry henry
International Coach
SJS, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but you are aware that Fleming is well and truly retired from all cricket and has been for 12 months, right?
There is simply no chance of him ever coming back, but you talk about him as if you think a comeback is right around the corner.
Styris is retired from test matches as well btw
There is simply no chance of him ever coming back, but you talk about him as if you think a comeback is right around the corner.
Styris is retired from test matches as well btw
social
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
NZ has the core of an excellent side with the following being world class or solid enough:
Taylor
Ryder
Vettori
McCullum
Bond
Martin
However, for a quantum leap to take place, guys like Guptil, Flynn and Patel need to step up whilst a couple of the injury-prone need to get on paddock regularly and perform
Obviously opener remains a problem whilst there are too many batting all-rounders (Oram, Franklin and arguably Vettori) and not enough genuine wicket-takers
Taylor
Ryder
Vettori
McCullum
Bond
Martin
However, for a quantum leap to take place, guys like Guptil, Flynn and Patel need to step up whilst a couple of the injury-prone need to get on paddock regularly and perform
Obviously opener remains a problem whilst there are too many batting all-rounders (Oram, Franklin and arguably Vettori) and not enough genuine wicket-takers