*Official* England in West Indies

[Manee]

I'd say the perfect balance for the side has Swann at 8 and three quicks besides Flintoff. Something like:

Cook
Strauss
Shah
KP
Colly
Freddie
Prior
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson
Harmison

Panesar's ineffective in the majority of conditions, so if you're sacrificing a bit of bowling for a decent batsman at 8 it makes more sense to do it with the spinner because 4 times out of 5 he won't play much of a role in deciding the game anyway.

Does Swann's spectacular failure in the warm up game mean nothing?

 

[four_or_six]

I'd say the perfect balance for the side has Swann at 8 and three quicks besides Flintoff. Something like:

Cook
Strauss
Shah
KP
Colly
Freddie
Prior
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson
Harmison

Panesar's ineffective in the majority of conditions, so if you're sacrificing a bit of bowling for a decent batsman at 8 it makes more sense to do it with the spinner because 4 times out of 5 he won't play much of a role in deciding the game anyway.


EDIT: Hahaha, just realised FOS posted a clone of this team just before me.

Great minds.

It's not just Panesar's bowling that gets me, it's been his total inability to improve his batting or his fielding. At least one would be good... he's had long enough.

 

[four_or_six]

Does Swann's spectacular failure in the warm up game mean nothing?

Not really... tipping him to 'do a Krejza'.

I guess if he'd been rubbish and the others had been good, it would be a problem. As it is, Panesar could have been just as bad. I'd rather look at their side-by-side performances.

 

[Uppercut]

Does Swann's spectacular failure in the warm up game mean nothing?

Of course not. In a career of 174 FC games one unofficial warm-up (with the aim of getting fit and in rhythm as opposed to taking wickets) is completely irrelevant.

 

[Manee]

Not really... tipping him to 'do a Krejza'.

I guess if he'd been rubbish and the others had been good, it would be a problem. As it is, Panesar could have been just as bad. I'd rather look at their side-by-side performances.

Doing a Krejza seems unlikely outside the subcontinent. I understand it is best to look at side-by-side performances but Swann is the one trying to break into the side ahead of Monty and one series in conditions completely different to those in the West Indies, conditions where Monty has never done too well, does not do that entirely.

Of course not. In a career of 174 FC games one unofficial warm-up (with the aim of getting fit and in rhythm as opposed to taking wickets) is completely irrelevant.

It is not completely irrelevant when it is Swann's chance to prove himself in West Indian conditions, which are quite different to those in England or India. Moreover, he would need something good to suddenly leapfrog England's spinner of the last few years.

 

[four_or_six]

Doing a Krejza seems unlikely outside the subcontinent. I understand it is best to look at side-by-side performances but Swann is the one trying to break into the side ahead of Monty and one series in conditions completely different to those in the West Indies, conditions where Monty has never done too well, does not do that entirely.

Was joking about Krejza, tbh. I just like the look of Swann better, and I think he fits into the team better. Also, I worry about Panesar's health next time he misfields off Sidebottom.

 

[Uppercut]

It is not completely irrelevant when it is Swann's chance to prove himself in West Indian conditions, which are quite different to those in England or India. Moreover, he would need something good to suddenly leapfrog England's spinner of the last few years.

Sorry, but it's totally irrelevant. There's no such thing as "West Indian conditions" or "English conditions", pitches here vary massively in bounce, variable bounce, turn offered, swing available, atmosphere, amount of wear- just about everything. So do the pitches in the West Indies. When a fast bowler gets carted at the Antigua Recreation Ground it doesn't mean they'll be carted in Jamaica in the next match.

In response to the second part, Swann's in my team ahead of Monty because he can bat. If Flintoff is going to bat at six, they need a reasonable contribution from 8. Considering that finger-spin is irrelevant in so many matches outside the subcontinent (where Monty is shocking anyway), I'd say an attack of [Flintoff, Swann, Anderson, Sidebottom, Harmison] looks superior to an attack of [Flintoff, Broad, Anderson, Sidebottom, Panesar].

 

[Manee]

Was joking about Krejza, tbh. I just like the look of Swann better, and I think he fits into the team better. Also, I worry about Panesar's health next time he misfields off Sidebottom.

I think Swann fits in the team better, but a certain amount of reason must be applied and I feel that Panesar should play as a result. However, I do understand your point of view. I moreso worry about Sidebottom's head exploding off his body the next time Panesar misfields off him, tbh.

Sorry, but it's totally irrelevant. There's no such thing as "West Indian conditions" or "English conditions", pitches here vary massively in bounce, variable bounce, turn offered, swing available, atmosphere, amount of wear- just about everything. So do the pitches in the West Indies. When a fast bowler gets carted at the Antigua Recreation Ground it doesn't mean they'll be carted in Jamaica in the next match.

In response to the second part, Swann's in my team ahead of Monty because he can bat. If Flintoff is going to bat at six, they need a reasonable contribution from 8. Considering that finger-spin is irrelevant in so many matches outside the subcontinent (where Monty is shocking anyway), I'd say an attack of [Flintoff, Swann, Anderson, Sidebottom, Harmison] looks superior to an attack of [Flintoff, Broad, Anderson, Sidebottom, Panesar].

I vehemently disagree that all pitches are part of one 'pool' so to speak with variation in all the parameters as different regions offer different soils which have general characteristics that are hard to quantify as 'bounce', 'turn', etc, because of the certain combinations. Certainly, Swann is not guaranteed to be carted in the first Test simply due to this performance but as a County veteran, consistency should be a given and seeing how the bowler adapts to a new condition is the main criterion for whether the 440 FC wickets can be converted into Test form overseas.

 

[Uppercut]

Well Panesar hasn't had a decent game since New Zealand at Old Trafford last May. I think his general ineffectiveness, with no remote batting or fielding skills to make up for it, is enough reason to play Swann instead.

 

[roseboy64]

Okay, the full WI squad is Chris Gayle (capt), Dale Richards, Ramnaresh Sarwan, Devon Smith, Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Brendan Nash, Denesh Ramdin, Jerome Taylor, Fidel Edwards, Daren Powell, Sulieman Benn, Xavier Marshall, Lionel Baker, Amit Jaggernauth.

Which three players are likely to miss out for the first Test in two days' time?

Benn, Marshall and Baker.

 

[The Masterplan]

Okay, the full WI squad is Chris Gayle (capt), Dale Richards, Ramnaresh Sarwan, Devon Smith, Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Brendan Nash, Denesh Ramdin, Jerome Taylor, Fidel Edwards, Daren Powell, Sulieman Benn, Xavier Marshall, Lionel Baker, Amit Jaggernauth.

Which three players are likely to miss out for the first Test in two days' time?

Devon Smith is in the squad! legend

 

[FBU]

I was reading if Flintoff wasn't fit then the team might look like this --

Cook, Strauss, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Shah, Prior, Rashid, Sidebottom, Harmison, Panesar.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I was reading if Flintoff wasn't fit then the team might look like this --

Cook, Strauss, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Shah, Prior, Rashid, Sidebottom, Harmison, Panesar.

Collingwood first change? Wouldn't fill me with confidence, frankly. Especially as Sid seems to be permanently one night's awkward sleeping position away from buggering his back nowadays.

 

[Uppercut]

Collingwood first change? Wouldn't fill me with confidence, frankly. Especially as Sid seems to be permanently one night's awkward sleeping position away from buggering his back nowadays.

Haha yeah, that'd be a shocker of an XI. Even India don't play two specialist spinners and no all-rounder outside the sub-continent, and they'd have the players to justify that.

 

[analyst]

I was reading if Flintoff wasn't fit then the team might look like this --

Cook, Strauss, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Shah, Prior, Rashid, Sidebottom, Harmison, Panesar.

Why does Ian Bell have like a lifetime England opportunity for his invaluably contributions on flattracks and comfortable situations. Its obvious to anyone outside England, he won't win England matches against any serious opposition unless he is dropped and has a change in attitude as the present Ian Bell is set to become the new improved Hick/Ramps.

I think I said this before unless Bell is going to play at 5 , there should be no Ian Bell in the team on present form, IMO, Shah and Collingwood both should play even though the latter is also starting to struggle in international cricket and the number of players pushing for his place is growing longer and longer with each day and it does beg questions of the selectors and their new middle order replacement. It may appear peculiar but IMO Samit Patel would be a far more inspired selection as a middle order test batsman than Ravi Bopara at this point in his career.

Ravi Bopara should be one of the most important players in their faltering ODI team which the selectors and the captain fail to understand.

 

[roseboy64]

Will be at Sabina Park on Friday at the Mound.

 

[NUFAN]

I would love to see West Indies win this series, with some excellent contributions from batsman not called Chanderpaul, Gayle or Sarwan.

 

[TT Boy]

I was reading if Flintoff wasn't fit then the team might look like this --

Cook, Strauss, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Shah, Prior, Rashid, Sidebottom, Harmison, Panesar.

Two spinners at Sabina Park. Wow.

 

[Flem274*]

Gayle
Smith
Sarwan
Chanderpaul
Nash
Marshall/Ryan Hinds
Ramdin
Taylor
Jaggernauth
Powell/Baker
Edwards

Gun team.

 

[grecian]

Five bowlers the only way for England, for me I'm afraid.

All our bowlers are inconsistent or injury-prone, I'm more worried about Ryan getting through five days then Freddie, to be honest. At least Flintoff gives us something if he's not bowling. Yet they're both our best bowlers, IMO.

The only way you can go in with four is by dropping both and then trusting that GBH, Broad Anderson and Swann are all on. Really not happy with that, coz it's about 100-1 against, imho.

I really don't see the objection to Prior batting at 6 either, his record against West Indies, and his very consistent batting performances in first-class cricket over the last few years makes him perfectly adequate for the position IMHO.