***Official England in India***

[fredfertang]

Darvid has been one of the best batsmen in the last 20 years...standards do drop and you can't always rely on past performances.

Of course that's right and he may well not be the player he was but judging by his performances for Somerset last season I suspect he is

 

[wpdavid]

I'd best be careful here as ODI's don't really stick in my mind so but my recollection is that his great virtue was not consistency but the ability to take games by the scruff of the neck on a reasonably regular basis - he's our leading ODI ton scorer by a country mile isn't he?

No idea. I know Tres had an unfortunate habit of making 100's when we lost, which apparently is reason enough for some to write him off judging by comments about other players.

I did have a look at his stats after my previous post. tbf he was good against SL in 2006, but woeful against Pakistan. Quite what his mindset was by then is anyone's guess though. He had indeed been poor for most of 2004 & 2005, and I'd forgotten that he'd contributed zilch to the SA ODIs. However, I'd also forgotten the ICC tournament over here in 2004, when he was by some distance our bets batsman in the 3 knock out games.

tbf we'd get occasional innings from Tres that Bell can only dream of producing, and he was certainly more likely to go on with it if he reached 20.

 

[gettingbetter]

Of course that's right and he may well not be the player he was but judging by his performances for Somerset last season I suspect he is

As much flack Bell cops. I don't think he is doing that bad of a job. More consistent than Tresco without the mongrel.

Add to that, you don't think all these exceptions could come and take place if Tresco was only allowed to play home games? I've heard that Harmison isn't fond of travelling either. Another factor is that a consistent opening partnership would develop.

Tresco coming back isn't the answer.

 

[Goughy]

Just checking Tresco's stats (just to point out higher average, at a massively higher strike rate with far more big scores than the pedestrian Bell) and I noticed he has only ever batted in 1st position.

He never even swapped the opening position.

I wonder how many others with 100+ ODIs have only batted in 1 position.

 

[masterblaster]

On the Indian side of things, it's been pleasing to see Munaf Patel come back into this side and bowl well. He's been very disciplined and his performances have been solid throughout. While all the buzz has been about Ishant Sharma lately, Munaf has consistently put in decent performances and bowled with heart. It's great to see because at one point his career was really going off track.

 

[wpdavid]

Just checking Tresco's stats (just to point out higher average, at a massively higher strike rate with far more big scores than the pedestrian Bell) and I noticed he has only ever batted in 1st position.

He never even swapped the opening position.

I wonder how many others with 100+ ODIs have only batted in 1 position.

Would have to be either an opener or a number 11.

Maybe Hayden & McGrath? Graeme Smith?

 

[Goughy]

Would have to be either an opener or a number 11.

Maybe Hayden & McGrath? Graeme Smith?

Not any of those 3.

McGrath at 6 Farce of an ODI

 

[kingkallis]

Bopara is quite a good player but is used terribly by England. He is definitely a player who likes to take his time to settle, but he can be a solid No.3 or No.4 batsman.

In short, Bopara is England's Mohammad Kaif!

 

[kingkallis]

On the Indian side of things, it's been pleasing to see Munaf Patel come back into this side and bowl well. He's been very disciplined and his performances have been solid throughout. While all the buzz has been about Ishant Sharma lately, Munaf has consistently put in decent performances and bowled with heart. It's great to see because at one point his career was really going off track.

Dude, thats the 'Warne' effect! He made him believe in his abilities and Munaf has improved his fitness as well...

I have seen him playing cricket with bare foots in villages of Gujarat so there was NO doubt about the talent but Warne helped him with his attitude and fitness!

 

[fredfertang]

Just checking Tresco's stats (just to point out higher average, at a massively higher strike rate with far more big scores than the pedestrian Bell) and I noticed he has only ever batted in 1st position.

He never even swapped the opening position.

I wonder how many others with 100+ ODIs have only batted in 1 position.

What about Haynes and Greenidge? Can't imagine either dropped down the order too often

 

[wpdavid]

What about Haynes and Greenidge? Can't imagine either dropped down the order too often

Haynes started at number 2 but also played at 1. Without checking, I'd guess that Greenidge started at number 2 'behind' Fredericks before batting at 1.

I looked up a few others - Anwar, Gooch & Gavaskar - and they don't fit the bill either.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Gary Kirsten?

 

[wpdavid]

Gary Kirsten?

Nope. Batted down the order a few times, as well as swapping opening positions.

EDIT
The nearest I've found is Glen McGrath, as I don't count his Asia vs ROW as a proper ODI. However, there was a solitary game when he batted at 10 for Australia, Shaun Tait being deemed a worse batsman in one of the 2007 games against Engand. Rather a shame to spoil a hitherto unblemished record imo.

 

[Richard]

'tis ODI's where the mighty Tresco is so badly missed - England would be immeasureably better were he available - It would be a huge step forward if someone selectorial could recognise the reality of his situation and allow him to make himself available just for matches in England

Personally I just can't see the point of doing that. The next World Cup in England isn't until 2019 - there's no way he's going to last that long.

I've always been of the mindset that you should play ODIs only if you're going to play in the next WC. Otherwise you just disrupt the team.

 

[Richard]

Im surprised that not one person has talked about how appalling Pietersen's dismissal was yesterday.

I think I mentioned it, though it was a little while after the event as the forum was down for a few minutes around that time. I said, and still think, that it was appalling thinking. Pietersen should have let Harbhajan bowl - Patel and Sharma were both looking completely off, and there were 10 overs of Yuvraj Singh (and others if he'd been successful as Yuvraj wouldn't have bowled all 10) for him to get stuck into.

If 3 bowlers are looking like weak links and there's an established class-act in the side, unless you're chasing 350 you can afford to let the class-act bowl without looking to chase the game against him.

It's kind of like Sehwag in the opening game, which again I said at the time. It didn't pay-off as well as it might, but he was utterly smashing every other bowler, so he knew he could afford to treat Flintoff's bowling with the respect it merited. Knew that if he went after Flintoff he could quite easily miss the chance to cash-in on the rubbish.

Gautam Gambhir made the same mistake as Pietersen later in the game, and did not learn from Sehwag's approach in the opener. It didn't cost his side quite as much though.

 

[Richard]

Dont think Collingwood was very good to begin with tbh. Hes always been a middling cricketer who contributes a fair bit in all aspects on the field. He rose above his usual level for one series and quickly dissolved back into the depths of mediocrity that fit his career like a solved jigsaw puzzle.

It wasn't one series at all. Somehow people seem to have forgotten that Collingwood was wretched for most of the CB Series, then raised his game to superlative levels in the final 3 games.

It's been the story of his career, as I said not so long ago in another thread. Collingwood has always had 3 or 4 innings' in a row where he's been almost impossible to get out, then 20 or 30 innings' where he's done not-much-at-all. The former (and his minnow-bashing ability, which is beyond most other batsmen) tends to disguise the latter in a big way. For most of his career, Collingwood's been poor, but occasionally he's been brilliant.

Of course, after this comment it's quite possible he'll have another period in the last 4 games - he's had several against India previously. But it won't change the past.

 

[Richard]

Disagree. As people have suggested in the past, NZ have always punched above their weight despite not having too many high calibre ODI players. Im sorry but how many teams have players that are as talented as the likes of Pietersen and Flintoff?
Australia yes
India yes
Sri Lanka possibly

and then you really have to exaggerate players' abilities in order to say so.

I think it goes deeper than that. Theres surely got to be something wrong with the makeup of the domestic and list A cricket in England because most players are simply not possessing the kind of skills that they should already have when they play for England in colored kits.

NZ have also had some better ODI players than people have given them credit for. People have looked at the Larsens, Harrises, Twoses etc. and said "well they're not good Test players so they're not good players, they just punch above their weight in ODIs". Which, well, is wrong, pure-and-simple.

NZ have had quite a few damn good ODI players in the last 10-15 years or so, they've just had so many injury problems we've also seen some utterly hopeless ones in their place.

England, on the other hand, have had 1 quality ODI player debut in the last 8 years: Pietersen. That, I think, sums-up the cause of the problems. There has, obviously, got to be something wrong somewhere but I don't think it's at county level, as players once they get to county level are 20-21 years of age mostly and by that stage most development has been done. Pietersen himself had already undergone his development elsewhere. This means that there hasn't been a British-raised quality ODI player debut for England in the last 8 years.

The problem, I think, just lies in the fact that the ODI game has never been treated seriously enough in this country. The fact that Twenty20 apparently is, though, doesn't seem to make any difference to the calibre of English Twenty20.

 

[Richard]

I can't see where you can fault Shah since his return. I will admit that he hasn't been consistent, but nor have any other England batsmen.

Shah's been pretty poor. The fact that no-one - even Pietersen - has been any better isn't an excuse.

 

[Precambrian]

In short, Bopara is England's Mohammad Kaif!

Much better contributer with the bat and the ball. Though in fielding Kaif betters him. Bopara is value as a test prospect also imho.

 

[Precambrian]

Gotta love the Crapinfo headline writers. Preview for tomorrow's game titled

England to face Tendulkar in crunch tie