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Vaughan not picked for India tour

Jamee999

Hall of Fame Member
Compared to Ian Blackwell that averages 47.07 :-O
Taunton.


Shah being picked is a good decision - but imo he should've been picked because he is a better batsman than Ravi Bopara - picking him because of his spin bowling is dodgy on two grounds:

a) Surely if you want a batsman who can bowl spin you go for Patel
b) Why are we going bits and pieces? (picking batsmen based on bowling)
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
He averages 48 in FC at Taunton.

Its certainly higher than his career away record but it isnt unusual for players to average more at home than away. I think the Taunton factor is sometmes overplayed.

The 'road' nature certainly helped but how much can be debated.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
It also tends to assume the failure of his replacement as inevitable. They may as well say:

"Well, he's not worth a place in the side now... but none of those lemons are likely to keep him out for long."
Hoggard's central contract was a waste of money last year, only played 4 games. Don't think we can read much into it either way.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Wel just to continue this. Ill add more if I get around to loking at them.

Over past 5 seasons (2004 on)
Sales- 51.61
Blackwell- 48.12
McGrath- 50.05
Shah- 51.96
Pothas- 50.48
Joyce- 46.44
Carberry- 38.91 (so much for certain people touting him as a Tst player after 1 good season)
Out of interest, why do you go for 5 alone, when 2001, 2002 and 2003 were all excellent for Shah too?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
He averages 48 in FC at Taunton.

Its certainly higher than his career away record but it isnt unusual for players to average more at home than away. I think the Taunton factor is sometmes overplayed.

The 'road' nature certainly helped but how much can be debated.
It's the short boundaries that count far more than the nature of the pitch, IMO.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Shah being picked is a good decision - but imo he should've been picked because he is a better batsman than Ravi Bopara - picking him because of his spin bowling is dodgy on two grounds:

a) Surely if you want a batsman who can bowl spin you go for Patel
b) Why are we going bits and pieces? (picking batsmen based on bowling)
Has it actually been specifically stated that Shah's supposed bowling skill (I've said before that I can bowl better than him and haven't yet seen anything to change my mind) actually played a part in his selection?

If so that is ind33d deeply worrying.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Out of interest, why do you go for 5 alone, when 2001, 2002 and 2003 were all excellent for Shah too?
Because that was what the original statement was about. See below

... but you cannot begrudge Shah an opportunity. He has been one of the most consistent domestic performers of the last 5 years, so deserves a shot at the Test side.
Also its a nice round(ish) number and 5 years is more relevant to now than 7 but still gives a large sample size and body of work.

Would pick Vaughan ahead of Hussain personally.
As would I.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Because that was what the original statement was about.

Also its a nice round(ish) number and 5 years is more relevant to now than 7 but still gives a large sample size and body of work.
I see. As I showed, though, he's actually been one of the best of the last 8. Though I agree that the happenings of 2001 aren't really all that relevant to today. Had Shah failed dismally that season as he had most of his previous ones, he'd have no less a case to be at the front of the queue now.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Rob Key averages around 53.90 (although includes first class games against the touring sides for Kent and England 'A')
 

SpaceMonkey

International Debutant
I was under the impression Shah was picked over Bopara mainly because he's a much better player of spin (i think he's done well in India before). Nothing to do with his bowling.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Me neither. Would pick Vaughan ahead of Hussain personally.
Would defo go for Hussain in the sub continent tbh. Thought he was always a decent enough player of spin, and unlike Vaughan he really dug in when the going was tough, would often put together a really ugly but really important innings, Vaughan is terrible at scrapping.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Marvan Attapattu averaged below, Simon Katich currently does, as does Jacques Rudolph. Decent players.

Attapattu was hardly a good player. He was merely a serviceable option at the top of the order doing a job that no one else in SL could do better. His case is not remotely comparable to Vaughan who was batting at the highly coveted number 3 position.

As i have mentioned many times before, the overall average is not the be all and end all for a player's ability. Vaughan's average makes him look a better player than hes actually been and hes undoubtedly been a player whos since 2002/03 hasnt managed to ring in consistent series performances. Scoring a 100 every 5 tests isnt bad, but when you do little else in that period its not exactly noteworthy either.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Me neither. Would pick Vaughan ahead of Hussain personally.
Im surprised at that tbh. In a big match situation or on a seamers paradise where the rest of the side is struggling I would pick Hussain anyday of the year. On a flat batting track where the emphasis is on scoring big runs, I might pick Vaughan. Hussain himself has stated in his autobiography that he felt more pressure when the rest of the team had scored runs rather than when he played on minefields with the rest of the side collapsing around him. Vaughan, as someone stated earlier, is incapable of scratching around in such circumstances as Hussain was.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
It depends on what you see Patel's role as TBH. His batting surely is test #6 potential ATM & his bowling although off the an exciting start in ODI would just be decent back-up a la what Symonds would have done for AUS.
Tbh I expect Monty Panesar to be as ordinary as he has been on his last 2 subcontinental tours. Not being able to toss the ball up is a crime when you bowl in the subcontinent and unless hes made some serious changes to his bowling I dont see him troubling too many batsmen. Similarly, theres little sense in picking 2 spinners when they are off the calibre of Monty and Swann, especially with the pace battery that England currently possess. Patel's role is to provide balance to the side, he will provide the backup to Monty Panesar while still allowing England to play their best bowlers in the side (Harmison, Flintoff, Anderson)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I was under the impression Shah was picked over Bopara mainly because he's a much better player of spin (i think he's done well in India before). Nothing to do with his bowling.
I'd hope he'd simply been picked because he's obviously a better batsman full-stop... but I'm not fool enough to believe that actually is the case. I'm just happier with the right decision being made for the wrong reasons than the wrong decision being made for the wrong reasons.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
I'd hope he'd simply been picked because he's obviously a better batsman full-stop... but I'm not fool enough to believe that actually is the case. I'm just happier with the right decision being made for the wrong reasons than the wrong decision being made for the wrong reasons.
Hmmm, problem is though that if he has been selected on the basis of his bowling, he really will have to put in several very good innings with the bat so to make himself un-droppable. If for example he only scores an decent amount of runs rather than a really good amount and his bowling does not prove to be much use either, one fears that he will be dropped. I like you feel he should be put straight into the team on his batting alone, as have not really seen Bopara show anything to merit his inclusion.
 

Woodster

International Captain
Attapattu was hardly a good player. He was merely a serviceable option at the top of the order doing a job that no one else in SL could do better. His case is not remotely comparable to Vaughan who was batting at the highly coveted number 3 position.
Would have to disagree here. Atapattu had a very sound technique, and was a typical opening bat, in style and temperament. Even showed he still had it after being out of Test cricket for nearly two years, and passed 50 in both Tests in Australia.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Would have to disagree here. Atapattu had a very sound technique, and was a typical opening bat, in style and temperament. Even showed he still had it after being out of Test cricket for nearly two years, and passed 50 in both Tests in Australia.
Attapattu did have a good technique, although my argument is not that he was not talented (which Attapattu undoubtedly was), but that his performances at the test level were not very good. His record against all teams bar England is mediocre, failing to even average in the mid 30s against most teams.Attapattu will undoubtedly be on the list of players along with Hick and Ramprakash as players who underperformed significantly at the international level.
 

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