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***Official England in India***

Precambrian

Banned
Well, Bell has a higher chance of succeeding than Kevin in my books simply because he's got better technique against spin. That's precisely where the other test batsmen are going to be really tested. Once they get past Zaheer and Ishant, which itself will quite be interesting, but not really difficult. My only concern is the form of Jumbo, he's been strugglin in 08, but oh, we'll surely have answers in Oct, don't we?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, but it would help, especially when batsmen go after him. You couldn't hit him out of the attack, or force him to put mid-on and mid-off back. Panesar's nowhere near the bowler he could be.
He's seldom hit out of the attack as things stand, truth be told. The assault by Gilchrist and Clarke (which turned his match-figures from 8-196 to 8-237 in the space of a few overs) is still really the only time batsmen have successfully actually gone after him (rather than scored at good speed because he's bowled poorly, ie dragging it down too often as he does from time to time).
I think the point you're making is that a finger spinner with no doosra who can't bat or field has no place in a test side under most conditions. Generally that's true- but it's very difficult to tell what a pitch will do in three or four days, so they keep him there to hedge their bets. What i think is, he could be worth that unconditional place in the side just for bowling if his variation and flight were to improve- but as it stands, he's not.
These days it's pretty rare for a pitch to start offering nothing and finish offering anything much. Wickets don't deteriorate like they used to.

Generally these days, if a pitch is going to assist spin, it does it throughout the match. And often such pitches get slower so hence become less, not more, spin-friendly as the match goes on.

Of course, you can't know for certain what a pitch is going to do pre-match, but you can generally have a fair idea of when a pitch is going to turn and when it's not. I don't like to see a pitch wasted on a fingerspinner who could take 0-30 off 12 overs because he's been picked on the off-chance he might take 7-90. You've got to weigh-up the times when you'll not play a spinner where he'd have been effective with those where you'll play one and he'll be ineffective. For mine, the latter enormously outnumber the former.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bell certainly doesn't fill me with confidence. Didn't you notice the entire post i made to that effect? Those players do have a case, but it isn't really all that strong for any of them. I'm quite indifferent to whether they replace Bell, i don't think any of them (inc. Bell) will succeed in India.
Really, if Bell's poor form continues much longer, Shah has more than earned the opportunity to replace him. I don't know what it is about him that people "don't have confidence inspired" from but you could barely have a player who's done more to earn a Test chance. Shah has barely stopped scoring First-Class runs since 2001.
 

pup11

International Coach
Well, Bell has a higher chance of succeeding than Kevin in my books simply because he's got better technique against spin. That's precisely where the other test batsmen are going to be really tested. Once they get past Zaheer and Ishant, which itself will quite be interesting, but not really difficult. My only concern is the form of Jumbo, he's been strugglin in 08, but oh, we'll surely have answers in Oct, don't we?
With all due respect to you mate, have you seriously seen KP bat, he treats spinners with no respect whatever, he has got an unorthodox style of tackling spin bowling, but.. boy its surely effective, i can't really understand where you are coming from as KP has never been troubled by even great spin bowlers, he is more vulnerable against good fast-bowling rather than spin bowling.
 

Uppercut

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With all due respect to you mate, have you seriously seen KP bat, he treats spinners with no respect whatever, he has got an unorthodox style of tackling spin bowling, but.. boy its surely effective, i can't really understand where you are coming from as KP has never been troubled by even great spin bowlers, he is more vulnerable against good fast-bowling rather than spin bowling.
He's more likely to get out to a bad spinner than a bad seamer, though. Tendulkar knows. So does Paul Harris.
 

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With all due respect to you mate, have you seriously seen KP bat, he treats spinners with no respect whatever, he has got an unorthodox style of tackling spin bowling, but.. boy its surely effective, i can't really understand where you are coming from as KP has never been troubled by even great spin bowlers, he is more vulnerable against good fast-bowling rather than spin bowling.
Actually i had a look, and he's got out to more spinners than i'd have thought. Take a glance through:

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerDismissBat.asp?PlayerID=3238
 

pup11

International Coach
Really, if Bell's poor form continues much longer, Shah has more than earned the opportunity to replace him. I don't know what it is about him that people "don't have confidence inspired" from but you could barely have a player who's done more to earn a Test chance. Shah has barely stopped scoring First-Class runs since 2001.
The real problem with Bell is that he doesn't make good use of good form when he has it, he gets a lot of good starts, plays some good, and when he looks set to score big he finds a way to get out, so he's virtually wasting all his talent with the lack of proper temperament and concentration.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Well, that settles the question, does it pup? Btw i hail from Kerala, India.

It's really no rocket science to understand 'great' KP's allergy for spinners, all you need is to open Cricinfo and see his stats for his performance in the subcontinent. Add to that the way a rookie like Chawla had him last summer in the Natwest series.
 

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The real problem with Bell is that he doesn't make good use of good form when he has it, he gets a lot of good starts, plays some good, and when he looks set to score big he finds a way to get out, so he's virtually wasting all his talent with the lack of proper temperament and concentration.
He just looks good. It's not the same thing as actually being good.
 

Precambrian

Banned
England's hopes of winning the series will lie on Flintoff plus a specialist batsman who can deliver consistent performances, plus a fast bowler to back up Flintoff. I hope that batsman will be Bell.

If Flintoff doesn't fire, forget the series, if he does, then again forget the series, this time for the Indians. Man, he's a gem.
 

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England's hopes of winning the series will lie on Flintoff plus a specialist batsman who can deliver consistent performances, plus a fast bowler to back up Flintoff. I hope that batsman will be Bell.

If Flintoff doesn't fire, forget the series, if he does, then again forget the series, this time for the Indians. Man, he's a gem.
I don't think that's the case, because Flintoff doesn't run through teams, nor is he likely to score crazy amounts of runs. The key for me is Monty.
 

Precambrian

Banned
I don't think that's the case, because Flintoff doesn't run through teams, nor is he likely to score crazy amounts of runs. The key for me is Monty.
But he is the energy source. The captain maybe Kevin. But the motivation still flows from this guy. If he's in form, trust him to pluck out two or three guys at the top, and it's wide open for the others to run through. And his batting is understated. He has good aggressive play against spin, and can confuse Indians whether to go for aggressive or defensive play. Remember that Indians have been weak in knocking out tails, so Flintoff will have job of marshalling them too to England's advantage. Jus the feeling of a Flintoff to come next should give a bolt of confidence to any English batsman.
 

pup11

International Coach
He just looks good. It's not the same thing as actually being good.
He is good, in the sense he has got all the shots in his arsenal, but he doesn't seem to have the mental strength to buckle down and make most of his talent, and since he is not really being pushed by any batsman from the domestic level, so he doesn't seem to under any real pressure to improve either.
 

Precambrian

Banned
He is good, in the sense he has got all the shots in his arsenal, but he doesn't seem to have the mental strength to buckle down and make most of his talent, and since he is not really being pushed by any batsman from the domestic level, so he doesn't seem to under any real pressure to improve either.
That's a good point. Some of his best performances have come when his place has been threatened. i.e comeback of Flintoff, then Vaughan. etc. So having a batsman like Owais in the squad can act as a motivation.
 

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He is good, in the sense he has got all the shots in his arsenal, but he doesn't seem to have the mental strength to buckle down and make most of his talent, and since he is not really being pushed by any batsman from the domestic level, so he doesn't seem to under any real pressure to improve either.
I don't know how much of it is anything to do with mental strength. It's not like he throws his wicket away regularly with an irresponsible stroke. He just gets out by mistiming a shot or failing to deal with a good ball. So maybe he just isn't that good at timing shots consistently or dealing with good balls?
 

pup11

International Coach
But he is the energy source. The captain maybe Kevin. But the motivation still flows from this guy. If he's in form, trust him to pluck out two or three guys at the top, and it's wide open for the others to run through. And his batting is understated. He has good aggressive play against spin, and can confuse Indians whether to go for aggressive or defensive play. Remember that Indians have been weak in knocking out tails, so Flintoff will have job of marshalling them too to England's advantage. Jus the feeling of a Flintoff to come next should give a bolt of confidence to any English batsman.
If England would be needing too much assistance from Flintoff with the bat, then England would be in some trouble, because its well known that Freddie sucks against good spin bowling, so i am really not expecting him to score a ton of runs in this series, but as you said he is talismanic figure for England, but he would have a bigger role to play with the ball with good chance of the ball reversing in India.
 

adharcric

International Coach
It's debateable whether Kaif should ever have played a Test in my book. By Indian standards (until recently it seems) he's never been especially prolific.
Kaif probably didn't have a very strong case when he was initially picked for the test side. Over the past few seasons, he's been up on the domestic run charts, something he never managed to do earlier in his career.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
If England would be needing too much assistance from Flintoff with the bat, then England would be in some trouble, because its well known that Freddie sucks against good spin bowling, so i am really not expecting him to score a ton of runs in this series, but as you said he is talismanic figure for England, but he would have a bigger role to play with the ball with good chance of the ball reversing in India.
Forgot what Freddie did with the willow back in 06 haven't you?
 

FBU

International Debutant
Last time in India

Cook 61.00
Strauss 39.50
Shah 63.00
Bell 21.83
Pietersen 36.00
Collingwood 68.00
Flintoff 52.80

Anderson 13.16
Flintoff 30.54
Harmison 38.60
Panesar 62.40
 

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