***Official*** South Africa in England

[Scaly piscine]

CricketWeb in reality regarding Panesar shocker.

 

[gio]

Was at the Scotland game today. Good fun, especially when Fred was on the boundary having banter with the supporters.

First time I've seen Patel bowl. Might be well suited to the OD game, he bowls very flat and quite quick. Good fielder as well.

The conditions meant the ball was swinging all over the place, Scotland actually did pretty well to get to 150, it would have been interesting to see if the Scottish bowlers could have troubled England at all. Unfortunately, rain put paid to that.

 

[Goughy]

Patel being suggested as a Test option!

An ODI option, ok. Maybe even the 2nd spinner on tour. But as the primary spin option, I remain to be convinced.

If he was a 2fer and only bowled if needed to support an all pace attack then that is just about understandable, but he had better score runs as well as that would still be his primary job.

Regarding Panesar, he is ok. He never was anything else nor was he likely to be. He is clearly the best spinner England have, but do we need to play an average spinner that cant bat or field every game? Im not sure.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Regarding Panesar, he is ok. He never was anything else nor was he likely to be. He is clearly the best spinner England have, but do we need to play an average spinner that cant bat or field every game? Im not sure.

I always believe you should go with a spinner. So as he's the best we have he should be the first name on the team sheet.

 

[pup11]

I think its fair enough to say that Monty doesn't deserve a place in the Odi side, but in the longer form of the game he is still England's best spinner by a mile, though he needs to add an armball to his arsenal if he doesn't want to fade away, but still even thinking of somebody like Patel replacing in test cricket is ridiculous, just because he could field and bat better than him.

 

[Scaly piscine]

I think its fair enough to say that Monty doesn't deserve a place in the Odi side, but in the longer form of the game he is still England's best spinner by a mile, though he needs to add an armball to his arsenal if he doesn't want to fade away, but still even thinking of somebody like Patel replacing in test cricket is ridiculous, just because he could field and bat better than him.

Err no it's not ridiculous. Panesar doesn't bowl people out and he's either useless or a liability the rest of the time. That makes his value to the team pretty small. Patel has a good FC record with bat and ball, he could probably do the block an end job that is about all Panesar achieves (assuming the batsmen don't try to attack him, then he doesn't have much idea). Apart from this if you pick Patel you can then pick a better seamer than Broad - this improvement in seam bowling is far more significant than a small loss in spin bowling. Seam bowlers dictate games, finger spinners rarely do.

Even if Patel only averages 30 with the bat and 40 with the ball at Test level he'll contribute far more than Panesar - that 30 in each innings would add 20-25 runs more than Panesar individually and yet more runs in partnerships. Then you've got the better fielding too. Panesar's bowling would only recoup this in somewhat exceptional circumstances.

 

[Goughy]

Even if Patel only averages 30 with the bat and 40 with the ball at Test level he'll contribute far more than Panesar - that 30 in each innings would add 20-25 runs more than Panesar individually and yet more runs in partnerships. Then you've got the better fielding too. Panesar's bowling would only recoup this in somewhat exceptional circumstances.

I agree with a lot of the points you make but I disagree with the conclusion. Thats getting dangerously into B&P territory. As we have see many times over the years, if you try and get 2 half players it seldom ever adds up to one. The sum is often less than the total of the parts.

Test cricket is a specialists game. If Patel can make is mark as a batsman then his SLA is a massive bonus, but I wouldnt accept anyone averaging 30 with the bat and then bowling filthy spin (unless a short term measure or part of a specific plan)

 

[Scaly piscine]

I agree with a lot of the points you make but I disagree with the conclusion. Thats getting dangerously into B&P territory. As we have see many times over the years, if you try and get 2 half players it seldom ever adds up to one. The sum is often less than the total of the parts.

Test cricket is a specialists game. If Patel can make is mark as a batsman then his SLA is a massive bonus, but I wouldnt accept anyone averaging 30 with the bat and then bowling filthy spin (unless a short term measure or part of a specific plan)

I'm not saying that 30 with the bat and 40 with the ball is a good contribution, just that it's more than what Panesar brings to the team. Also Giles averaged 20odd and 40 and was a regular pick.

I agree that bits and pieces isn't the way to go - that's why I don't like Broad's selection. Four top bowlers who can bowl threatening overs is the priority, there's no way to accommodate that by picking Panesar unless he is one of the regular threats (which very much relies upon the pitch being a real dustbowl from the start - even then someone like India will probably play him easily).

Obviously the tour to the subcontinent complicates things. Most of the time England should be looking to pick 4 of Flintoff, Harmison, Simon Jones, Anderson, Sidebottom, Hoggard first and from there it'll be pretty obvious they can't fit Panesar in. If Patel can be a Test class batsman it would be perfect.

 

[Goughy]

I'm not saying that 30 with the bat and 40 with the ball is a good contribution, just that it's more than what Panesar brings to the team. Also Giles averaged 20odd and 40 and was a regular pick.

I agree that bits and pieces isn't the way to go - that's why I don't like Broad's selection. Four top bowlers who can bowl threatening overs is the priority, there's no way to accommodate that by picking Panesar unless he is one of the regular threats (which very much relies upon the pitch being a real dustbowl from the start - even then someone like India will probably play him easily).

Obviously the tour to the subcontinent complicates things. Most of the time England should be looking to pick 4 of Flintoff, Harmison, Simon Jones, Anderson, Sidebottom, Hoggard first and from there it'll be pretty obvious they can't fit Panesar in. If Patel can be a Test class batsman it would be perfect.

Id agree with that. We shouldnt disadvantage ourselves with a self inflicted quota system of 1 specialist spinner per team. The best 4 bowlers to do the job should be picked. On the sub-continent that will include Panesar, but at home he should not be an automatic pick. He very well may get the nod, but that should be because he is deemed a 2 inning threat rather than selected as the best available spinning luxury.

Decisions have to be made, but setting ourselves a min quota of 1 specialist spinner is inflexible.

3 good seamers with a bowling allrounder (Flintoff) plus a good batsman bowling servicable spin (like we hope Patel may become) turning away from the right hander is an ideal situation.

 

[gettingbetter]

Patel being suggested as a Test option!

Whats so shocking about that? Unless he has been suggested as a spinner. His batting average is one of the best, if not the best for an English player in the country, though his form this season hasn't been matching that.

 

[Goughy]

Whats so shocking about that? Unless he has been suggested as a spinner. His batting average is one of the best, if not the best for an English player in the country, though his form this season hasn't been matching that.

My response was due to his potential selection being discussed on the basis of his bowling.

 

[gettingbetter]

Understandable.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Twenty20 match called off unsurprisingly, the weather's horrible around here and has been for over a week. Worst I've seen the nearby ecology park flood all year - that was before I found shelter to escape a nice 15 minute burst of torrential rain.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, I take it this means Colly is out for an extra ODI now?

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I think its fair enough to say that Monty doesn't deserve a place in the Odi side, but in the longer form of the game he is still England's best spinner by a mile, though he needs to add an armball to his arsenal if he doesn't want to fade away, but still even thinking of somebody like Patel replacing in test cricket is ridiculous, just because he could field and bat better than him.

I think he did experiment with a new 'arm ball' type delivery in the test series with SA? im sure i saw a few deliverys that looked very much like he was trying that. I'm also sure i remember a commentator mentioning it too.

 

[Uppercut]

I think he did experiment with a new 'arm ball' type delivery in the test series with SA? im sure i saw a few deliverys that looked very much like he was trying that. I'm also sure i remember a commentator mentioning it too.

Hmm, i believe they were actually questioning why he has not yet developed an adequate arm-ball. Panesar bowled pretty poorly (but for good figures) against SA, especially considering he was the one player who was obviously and undeniably better than his Safrican equivalent. India aren't the opponents you want at this time in your career; not many spinners succeed against their lineup.

 

[Burgey]

Isn't there a T20 tonight? I heard on the radio this morning some of the horse racing inthe UK was being cancelled due to the usual deluge over there. What's the forecast like for tonight's venue?

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Isn't there a T20 tonight? I heard on the radio this morning some of the horse racing inthe UK was being cancelled due to the usual deluge over there. What's the forecast like for tonight's venue?

T20 was cancelled yesterday due to a waterlogged ground. Unusual to call it off so early but i guess that shows just how bad the weather is up there. It also means England will go into the ODIs a bit undercooked.

 

[pup11]

^^ That holds true for the Proteas too, but seriously England would have to play out of their skins and still they might not able to upset South Africa, Proteas are one ruthless Odi unit, and imo England would do well not getting white-washed in this series, England needs to work on a lot of aspects of their one day game, before they can seriously start thinking about beating top Odi nations.

 

[Scaly piscine]

^^ That holds true for the Proteas too, but seriously England would have to play out of their skins and still they might not able to upset South Africa, Proteas are one ruthless Odi unit, and imo England would do well not getting white-washed in this series, England needs to work on a lot of aspects of their one day game, before they can seriously start thinking about beating top Odi nations.

They can beat top ODI nations, as much as other countries can, they just don't perform consistently.