who should retire?

[Salamuddin]

Yeah let's forget that in that lost match against SA, Ganguly was the highest scorer. Not to forget the match that India won against SA, Sourav Ganguly was the Man of the Match for his batting. Worst Bloke, how could he score runs for India and block the way for youngsters.

Also forget that India would have leading the series in Australia @ Perth if not for Umpiring horrors in Sydney. What was the average of the young promising middle order batsman of India - 4.25. Wow really earth shattering performance. Really ready to challenge Tendulkar, Ganguly, VVS and Dravid.



Yeah like the young stars of India had really shown that they were prepared to face Mendis.

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/asiacup/engine/match/335358.html

16,0, 3,20 - Looks like a good Telephone no.




Yeah Right, such an objective and apt assessment. I am really impressed.

Yeah and what did Ganguly do in Australia ? What did he do in Sri Lanka ? Jack all.....
Ganguly cashed in on an uber flat wicket in a losing cause at Ahmedabad....and well he is a hero again.


When did I ever advocate Yuvraj's selection in tests ? So why are you bringing up his failures as an excuse to not try out Kaif or Badrinath ?
India did not lose the test at Sydney because of umpiring - that is a weak argument that fails to look at the cold, hard facts. The so-called star batsmen could not bat two sessions to save the game....


I don't really see what a failure in a one-off one day match proves as opposed to failures over a three year period for some of these senior guys.

Batting failures at Bangalore 2005, Karachi 2006, Mumbai 2006, Cape Town 2007, Lords 2007, Melbourne and Sydney 2007/2008, Ahmedabad 2008 and KAndy and Colombo 2008....yup sustained brilliance there eh Sanz ?
Not to mention that both Adelaide and Galle would probably have been defeats had it not been for Sehwag's efforts.
When the going gets tough, these batsmen are repeatedly found wanting and only cash in on flat pitches and/or against average bowling.

Sanz, at least try and come up with rationale for retaining players who have repeatedly failed rather than accusing me of bias and subjectivity.

 

[Salamuddin]

Karthik has had an opportunity to cement his place as a proper batsman, He didn't. If he had performed well enough, he would be there in the team in the middle order batting.



It is irrelevant because he was dropped for the next two tests of the series in favor of Yuvraj.



Dont forget to add His main score came in the match where everyone made merry. You can call it inconsistent, I call it poor. Not much difference IMO.



And that was not a poor decision. Ganguly has scored 1500+ @45+

If you're going to exclude Kaif's innings in the WI on that basis, then why not exclude Ganguly's innings against Pakistan on super-flat wickets last year ?
And you accuse me of bias ?

 

[tooextracool]

Karthik has had an opportunity to cement his place as a proper batsman, He didn't. If he had performed well enough, he would be there in the team in the middle order batting.

I dont think this is exactly true. Unless I am mistaken, every time Karthik batted in the middle order, he did so because he was playing as the keeper batsman in the side. The times he played as a specialist batsman, he was opening. Point being that Karthik was never picked solely to play as a middle order batsman, he was either picked as an opener or as the keeper so it would be incorrect to suggest that by selecting him India have given lots of middle order players chances over the last few years. I highly doubt that Karthik averaging 31 in FC cricket is the best middle order batting option in Indian cricket at present either.

 

[Perm]

If a player is not performing, he should be dropped from the team. On the question, Whether or not the players in question should retire, well it is up to them, if they want to continue playing or retire, it should be their personal decision.

Exactly.

A player should retire if he feels ready to let go of the game he has made a career out of, not because people on an internet forum have an agenda against them and spend most of their time criticising great servants of the game. It is not their place to decide whether Kumble, Dravid or any of the other older Indian players should retire, that decision remains solely in the hands of the player. However, if any of them were to be dropped from the Test side then I think retirement would follow almost immediatly, as sad as that may be.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Why should anyone retire? Why cant they be selected or dropped on merit ?

Why does a cricketer ever have to retire if he doesn;t want to or have any reasons of his own to. We, in India, have this strange thing about retiring, because we are so scared about dropping a senior. What's worse dropping a person out of form or forcing someone to retire when he wants to play for longer?

I would absolutely agree with this. It's surely for the selectors to decide. If a chap isn't performing and they believe someone else would do better than the incumbent dropping one for the other is pretty much a definition of a selector's job, isn't it?

 

[Perm]

Youngsters have to earn their spot in the national team. Please tell me which youngster is ready to replace these guys ?

Even though he can no longer be classed as a 'youngster', Subramaniam Badrinath is the obvious answer to that question. Consistent performer for Tamil Nadu and has backed that up with phenomenal performances, but hasn't been able to break into the Test side ahead of any of the incumbents. I, like many others, feel that he deserves an opportunity at Test level ahead of Yuvraj Singh and Mohammad Kaif. Unfortunately, those two batsmen have been the next in line if any of the current players were injured. Since the start of the 2005/06 Indian domestic season he has been averaging over 75 in First Class cricket, and those kind of numbers simply can't be ignored, especially with some of the struggles that Dravid and Ganguly have experienced lately.

Other than that there is the new brigade of Indian batsmen, young players like Robin Uthappa (an opener), Manoj Tiwary, Rohit Sharma and Suresh Raina, who are all incredibly exciting but still relatively unproven at First Class level. There are very positive signs for these four players, who are all under 25, but (IMO) they still need another couple of seasons in domestic/representative cricket before they should make their Test debuts. For now, Badrinath is the only one with the necessary experience and form to make the step up to Test level and I feel he should be the next batsman in the line if any of the current middle-order should retire or suffer an injury.

Venugopal Rao was a batsman I had high hopes for, but his form has slipped away in the last few seasons and it seems he is far from the selectors eye. Hopefully if he could raise his game back to the standard of a few years ago he could push for selection, but at this stage it seems unlikely. Yashpal Singh is another Indian favourite of mine, a batsmen that the selectors should be looking at and giving more experience at the higher levels. If he can do well for India A then I would definitely look to him as a future Test player.

 

[adharcric]

I would absolutely agree with this. It's surely for the selectors to decide. If a chap isn't performing and they believe someone else would do better than the incumbent dropping one for the other is pretty much a definition of a selector's job, isn't it?

What if the selectors aren't doing their job?

 

[Perm]

India dropped Mohammad Kaif, a man who averages 63 in his past 5 tests including back to wall efforts against strong Australian and English bowling attacks

Kaif's last 5 Test matches came against England (one) and the West Indies (four), so the above statement isn't true. His 91 in Nagpur against England was a fine knock under pressure, I agree, but his subsequent failings in the West Indies (only one score of note, in a team total of 588/8) meant that the Indian selectors did not think he was the right man to be batting at #6 in the Test side. Whether Sourav Ganguly was the right man to replace him was very debateable at the time, but he performed well enough in South Africa, Bangladesh, England and at home against Pakistan to retain his spot. It is only now after his torrid time in Australia and Sri Lanka against spin bowling that his place deserves to be questioned.

 

[Perm]

What if the selectors aren't doing their job?

Then the selectors position must be questioned. At no stage should it become the players responsibility to retire because the selectors aren't doing the job that is required of them.

 

[BoyBrumby]

What if the selectors aren't doing their job?

Get new ones. Making tough judgement calls is where a selector should earn his corn.

If a bloke still enjoys his cricket & thinks he has something to offer at the highest level even if he might be not quite the player he once was he shouldn't be forced to retire just because his national selectors lack the cojones to buck the status quo.

 

[ret]

Exactly.

A player should retire if he feels ready to let go of the game he has made a career out of, not because people on an internet forum have an agenda against them and spend most of their time criticising great servants of the game. It is not their place to decide whether Kumble, Dravid or any of the other older Indian players should retire, that decision remains solely in the hands of the player. However, if any of them were to be dropped from the Test side then I think retirement would follow almost immediatly, as sad as that may be.

well, we are not discussing Dinesh Karthik's or Parthiv Patel's retirement but retirement of players who are 1. past their best and 2. in the stage where retirement is an option for them

another way to look at this would be should this 'greats' be dropped permanently [which is in a way retirement from international cricket] or should they go with their heads high

the Indian cricketers who have retired gracefully [from the top of my head] are Gavaskar, Sidhu and Srinath .... most of the others have had to be given strong signals. in fact discussing this is a way to see that doesn't happen to this greats and is it now the right time for some of them to call quits

and if you think that xyz topic should not be discussed on internet forums then, i guess, you have little idea of what forums are all about

when someone says should 'xyz' retire or not and then when someone retorts that retirement should be an individual's decision [which everyone knows, hello] then you know why internet forums are not highly rated .... discuss the topic by giving your opinion and not be stating whats obvious like retirement is an individual's decision *yawn*

 

[Sanz]

Yeah and what did Ganguly do in Australia ? What did he do in Sri Lanka ? Jack all.....

He did better than the great promising talent of India aka Yuvraj singh.

Ganguly cashed in on an uber flat wicket in a losing cause at Ahmedabad....and well he is a hero again.

Same flat track where everyone else failed. so much for objectivity. Not to mention the Kanpur Test which India won because of Ganguly.

When did I ever advocate Yuvraj's selection in tests ? So why are you bringing up his failures as an excuse to not try out Kaif or Badrinath ?

It doesn't matter who you advocate. The fact that Yuvraj Singh took most of the chances in the middle order suggests that it was him that hurt the chances Kaif eta l not Ganguly, VVS , SRT or Dravid. After scoring 91 again England, Kaif was dropped to accomodate Yuvraj Singh for the next two tests. Get your facts right first.

India did not lose the test at Sydney because of umpiring - that is a weak argument that fails to look at the cold, hard facts. The so-called star batsmen could not bat two sessions to save the game....

Yeah and no comments for bowlers who allowed 900 runs to the Aussies. Besides who were the highest scorers of that match ? VVS, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Dravid. Who were the lowest scorers of the match - Jaffer, Yuvraj, Dhoni. So once again get your FACTS right.

I don't really see what a failure in a one-off one day match proves as opposed to failures over a three year period for some of these senior guys.

So Drop Them. I dont have a problem with dropping anyone if they are performing crap, make the case for who should be dropped and who should be seleted. Just do not post crap about them the incorrectly point that main reasons for India's failures or question their overall record.

Batting failures at Bangalore 2005, Karachi 2006, Mumbai 2006, Cape Town 2007, Lords 2007, Melbourne and Sydney 2007/2008, Ahmedabad 2008 and KAndy and Colombo 2008....yup sustained brilliance there eh Sanz ?

Yeah and only the seniors failed, isn't it ? What where Sehwag's score in Colombo, Mumbai, Kanpur, Ahmedabad and capetown ? Please get your facts right, AGAIN.

Not to mention that both Adelaide and Galle would probably have been defeats had it not been for Sehwag's efforts.

Wow So selective. And Kanpur, Perth and many others would be a defeat without the seniors...
Anyways..said enough..dont have time today for your vitriol anymore.

 

[anoop4real]

Dravid for sure..........

 

[Perm]

and if you think that xyz topic should not be discussed on internet forums then, i guess, you have little idea of what forums are all about

when someone says should 'xyz' retire or not and then when someone retorts that retirement should be an individual's decision [which everyone knows, hello] then you know why internet forums are not highly rated .... discuss the topic by giving your opinion and not be stating whats obvious like retirement is an individual's decision *yawn*

This is the last time I will be replying to any of your posts, after this you'll be on my ignore list. Perhaps when you discuss the topic at hand without taking swipes at different posters it will be worthwhile to debate cricketing issues with you.

Anyway, I did state my opinion quite clearly and I stand by that. Obviously internet forums are about expressing opinions, and people quite often have vastly different ones. However, the fact remains that no amount of criticism on an online forum will cause any international players to retire from cricket, so it's pointless in saying "Tendulkar should retire, he's past it" when you, or anybody who expresses similar sentiment, have absolutely no influence over anything that these players will do. If they feel they should retire, then they will. It's as simple as that.

 

[Sanz]

This is the last time I will be replying to any of your posts, after this you'll be on my ignore list.

Wel Done.

 

[ret]

This is the last time I will be replying to any of your posts, after this you'll be on my ignore list. Perhaps when you discuss the topic at hand without taking swipes at different posters it will be worthwhile to debate cricketing issues with you.

Anyway, I did state my opinion quite clearly and I stand by that. Obviously internet forums are about expressing opinions, and people quite often have vastly different ones. However, the fact remains that no amount of criticism on an online forum will cause any international players to retire from cricket, so it's pointless in saying "Tendulkar should retire, he's past it" when you, or anybody who expresses similar sentiment, have absolutely no influence over anything that these players will do. If they feel they should retire, then they will. It's as simple as that.

well, it doesn't affect me at all whether you add me to your ignore list or whatever. you are adding me to your ignore list because the more you debate with me the more you will realize that you are not as smart as you think you are [and that happens to many] and thats not good for your ego [being shown the mirror ] .... in short, you are adding me to the ignore list for your own reasons, it doesn't affect me in anyway so go ahead and do that

2ndly, it's common sense that anything you do on forums in not going to affect anything, be it criticizing Bush for Iraq, Al Qaida for terrorist attacks, China for its policies in Tibet, etc. Saying that xyz is a better cricketer than abc is not going to affect anything too and so is discussing retirement .... so whats your point? is it that discussing retirement on internet forums is not going to influence anything as if it is suppose to influence that in the first place

I can't even believe that someone would have such below average intelligence level to actually first think that ppl do believe that discussing retirement here would influence retirement [and probably thinking that discussing other things would have some influence coz thats why you probably think this subject doesn't influence] and then come out and write stuff saying that it doesn't [when it is already one of the assumptions] as if you have discovered some secret and then [on top of that] act as if you are making some intelligent point [this example should be used as a joke on some laughter show or may be Mr Bean]

 

[ret]

Wel Done.

birds of a feather flock together .... and you are free to add me to yours too. no one is going to be miss anything by being on yours or anyones ignore list

moreover, i feel that adding ppl to ignore list is a girly thing to do. you hardly hear guys doing that but on the other hand girls are usually like i added him to my ignore list

 

[adharcric]

Then the selectors position must be questioned. At no stage should it become the players responsibility to retire because the selectors aren't doing the job that is required of them.

Get new ones. Making tough judgement calls is where a selector should earn his corn.

If a bloke still enjoys his cricket & thinks he has something to offer at the highest level even if he might be not quite the player he once was he shouldn't be forced to retire just because his national selectors lack the cojones to buck the status quo.

Haha, no **** ... but both of you are completely missing the point. Nobody will force these guys to retire and nobody will get the selectors changed for something as trivial as making poor selections in India. The point is that if these guys are holding onto a spot because of their stature and reputation (quite likely with Tendulkar and Ganguly) and it's clear that there are better replacements available, they should retire if they want the best for Indian cricket. Of course, that's much easier said than done as they'll want to continue because they have a passion for the game. Oh yeah, I'm not suggesting that this is the current situation but it could come up in the next year or two.

 

[Sanz]

birds of a feather flock together .... and you are free to add me to yours too. no one is going to be miss anything by being on yours or anyones ignore list

Welcome to the Ignore Hell of Sanz. It is easy to get in there and tough to get out of it.

moreover, i feel that adding ppl to ignore list is a girly thing to do. you hardly hear guys doing that but on the other hand girls are usually like i added him to my ignore list

There is always the first time. Besides It is better to do some girly thing than engage in a debate with a ****head Internet Bully who tries to show off his manhood on Internet forums perhaps because of his inability to do so in real life.

 

[Salamuddin]

He did better than the great promising talent of India aka Yuvraj singh.




Same flat track where everyone else failed. so much for objectivity. Not to mention the Kanpur Test which India won because of Ganguly.



It doesn't matter who you advocate. The fact that Yuvraj Singh took most of the chances in the middle order suggests that it was him that hurt the chances Kaif eta l not Ganguly, VVS , SRT or Dravid. After scoring 91 again England, Kaif was dropped to accomodate Yuvraj Singh for the next two tests. Get your facts right first.



Yeah and no comments for bowlers who allowed 900 runs to the Aussies. Besides who were the highest scorers of that match ? VVS, Tendulkar, Ganguly and Dravid. Who were the lowest scorers of the match - Jaffer, Yuvraj, Dhoni. So once again get your FACTS right.




So Drop Them. I dont have a problem with dropping anyone if they are performing crap, make the case for who should be dropped and who should be seleted. Just do not post crap about them the incorrectly point that main reasons for India's failures or question their overall record.



Yeah and only the seniors failed, isn't it ? What where Sehwag's score in Colombo, Mumbai, Kanpur, Ahmedabad and capetown ? Please get your facts right, AGAIN.



Wow So selective. And Kanpur, Perth and many others would be a defeat without the seniors...
Anyways..said enough..dont have time today for your vitriol anymore.

Yeah, yeah....same old crap dished out by Sanz as usual.....its no wonder guys like Greg Chapell and Ric Charlesworth, left India with this sort of attitude confronting them.....if you look at reputations rather than actual performance you have no hope.


..if your so-called star batsmen are performing, how come the team is losing tests left, right and centre and batting collapses have been the prominent feature of most of those losses . C'mon wise guy - let's hear your glorious explanation ?
The point is they're not performing and there doesn't look to be any scope for improvement as shown by three years of consistent failure - therefore you implement change. Its a pretty simple equation.


Anyway, I'm done with this....no point talking sense into people who can't see incompetence and failure.