***Official*** South Africa in England

[Uppercut]

I’ll fancy Ntini having another mare or two.

Perhaps, but nothing to the extent of the travesty at Lords. Each and every of their bowlers, save perhaps Morkel (who by no stretch of the imagination bowled well), bowled as badly as i've seen them do so in their careers. Surely they couldn't all have such terrible games twice in a row...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Kallis has had much worse days.

 

[Uppercut]

Kallis has had much worse days.

I suppose, i wasn't really thinking of him as a bowler. He was still pretty terrible though.

 

[Top_Cat]

I wouldn't pick Flintoff without an injury to the main 4. Still doesn't have enough overs under his belt this season. I know it's been suggested he doesn't have to lead the attack but this attack needs a leader. If Sidebottom is out, pick Jones or drop Broad for Jones, whatever.

But, either way, picking Flintoff and then bowling him less because you're worried about him being injured is a low-percentage move; you can't and shouldn't protect guys at Test level because even at his best, it's not as if Flintoff was a fast bowling genius (a la Marshall, McGrath, etc.) who you simply cannot do without and even half-fit will run through Test sides. At his best, he's a dependable, attacking wicket-taker and he'd definitely not be at his best right now. If there are any doubts about him being able to bowl long Test spells, you simply should not pick him.

If and when he can bowl the number of overs expected of a Test bowler, get him in because he's probably still one of England's best bowlers.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I agree that Flintoff is not ready to return to Test cricket. While he will likely never become a Test-class number six, he needs to be scoring good runs with some measure of consistency before he returns to the team in the spot of a batting allrounder. But given that he's almost certain to return, England will like suffer more short term harm if he does so for Collingwood. Long term, however, they could lose Flintoff for good if he goes down injured as one of a 4-man attack.

 

[Top_Cat]

I agree that Flintoff is not ready to return to Test cricket. While he will likely never become a Test-class number six, he needs to be scoring good runs with some measure of consistency before he returns to the team in the spot of a batting allrounder. But given that he's almost certain to return, England will like suffer more short term harm if he does so for Collingwood. Long term, however, they could lose Flintoff for good if he goes down injured as one of a 4-man attack.

This is why he hasn't been picked to now. It's a really hard one to get right when you're worried about his form with the bat and fitnes with the ball. If he's picked at 6 and bowls less overs but fails with the bat, the selectors will be pillored for picking an out-of-form batsman and dropping a guy who "Would have come good if he'd just had some support!" (Collingwood engenders the under-dog support I reckon). If he's picked as part of a 4-man attack, gets injured in his first 20 overs and SA pile on 600+, they'll be pillored for picking a half-fit hack.

Sure, he might hit runs and take wickets just through being a quality Test player and sheer force of will but the risk of the above is pretty high and I'd not back the English selectors to take that risk.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

All true, but I'd be very surprised if he didn't play in the next match.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah, 3 wickets in almost two days, even on a road, is pretty ordinary.....

 

[TT Boy]

Neil Mac is a decent doubt for Friday, his got a groin strain and apparently he will find out later today whether he will be fit for Friday. If Mac is ruled out then Duminy is likely to come in as a replacement opener. Gibbs could also be an option but I believe his wife is currently taking him to the cleaners and he has some other legal stuff to deal with.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Gibbs isn't in the squad, IIRC.

 

[TT Boy]

Gibbs isn't in the squad, IIRC.

I know but if Mac has a 'serious' groin strain his gone for the series which would mean South Africa has to call up another batsman i.e Gibbs.

 

[Uppercut]

Gibbs won't play. Wouldn't feel so good about Duminy opening, maybe they'd move de Villiers up?

 

[TT Boy]

Perhaps, but nothing to the extent of the travesty at Lords. Each and every of their bowlers, save perhaps Morkel (who by no stretch of the imagination bowled well), bowled as badly as i've seen them do so in their careers. Surely they couldn't all have such terrible games twice in a row...

Some of his displays against the West Indies and New Zealand were just as bad as Lords. The only difference was that all the bowlers were off colour in this test and those aforementioned sides still had a habit of rewarding Ntini's less than stellar bowling. South Africa would love to write Ntini's bowling performance off but the fact remains there has been question mark regarding him for nigh on twelve months now.

 

[Top_Cat]

Some of his displays against the West Indies and New Zealand were just as bad as Lords. The only difference was that all the bowlers were off colour in this test and those aforementioned sides still had a habit of rewarding Ntini's less than stellar bowling. South Africa would love to write Ntini's bowling performance off but the fact remains there has been question mark regarding him for nigh on twelve months now.

Yeah, it's true. He's showing some worryingly Jason Gillespie-esque signs of a top-notch Test bowler on the decline for inexplicable reasons. It'll probably take a big England team knock where he goes for 5-an-over for it to be really apparent.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Granted, Nel was showing some signs of Gillespieness for a while, but he's improved of late. He was never a truly outstanding bowler though.

 

[Days of Grace]

I'd go:

Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Ambrose
Sidebottom
Panasar
Anderson
Flintoff

Freddy may be a better bowler then Broad, but Broad's absense will weaken the lower order considerably.

 

[pasag]

Any particular reason this shouldn't be merged with the official thread?

 

[Jono]

I was thinking that too. Many threads are often closed when its "Shoaib to return in 3rd test" or whatever.

 

[James90]

It's a long series. No need to rush him.

 

[silentstriker]

It's a long series. No need to rush him.

It's only three matches, right?