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**Official** New Zealand in England

Leslie1

U19 Captain
This Marshall bashing has got to stop sometime... it's not his fault the bowling is piss poor. I won't be surprised if he's on the ticket to Pakistan considering how we do not have anybody else stepping up to the number 3 batting position. Name me a number 3 ODI batsman from New Zealand that's going to be automatic selection in that position like a Vettori as a spinner.

Nobody is bringing up the fact that Southee once again gets wickets to better his bowling average for the tour. That's a positive no? What's the average now? 15?
 

Flem274*

123/5
This Marshall bashing has got to stop sometime... it's not his fault the bowling is piss poor. I won't be surprised if he's on the ticket to Pakistan considering how we do not have anybody else stepping up to the number 3 batting position. Name me a number 3 ODI batsman from New Zealand that's going to be automatic selection in that position like a Vettori as a spinner.

Nobody is bringing up the fact that Southee once again gets wickets to better his bowling average for the tour. That's a positive no? What's the average now? 15?
Jamie How
Ross Taylor
Peter Fulton
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This Marshall bashing has got to stop sometime... it's not his fault the bowling is piss poor. I won't be surprised if he's on the ticket to Pakistan considering how we do not have anybody else stepping up to the number 3 batting position. Name me a number 3 ODI batsman from New Zealand that's going to be automatic selection in that position like a Vettori as a spinner.
Well, with an average of (seemingly) less than 10 against international class sides in one day cricket, I'd expect most other players (excluding Chris Martin) to equal or exceed that. The Marshall bashing will not stop until he's out of the team, or (unimaginable that it may be) he starts scoring runs consistantly against the best teams.

I, for one, will not be placing a wager on that outcome.
 

ohtani's jacket

State Vice-Captain
Meh, if they hadn't scored centuries, people would've been rubbishing them for not scoring runs against Ireland. It would've been classic if Marshall had made 200, however.

Are New Zealand the ultimate minnow bashers??? As far as I know, we've never lost to a minnow side.
 

slugger

State Vice-Captain
Nobody is bringing up the fact that Southee once again gets wickets to better his bowling average for the tour. That's a positive no? What's the average now? 15?
isnt because hes already proven himself aginst test status teams.. im sure some one like andrew penn would have enjoyed a match like this aginst ireland.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This Marshall bashing has got to stop sometime... it's not his fault the bowling is piss poor. I won't be surprised if he's on the ticket to Pakistan considering how we do not have anybody else stepping up to the number 3 batting position. Name me a number 3 ODI batsman from New Zealand that's going to be automatic selection in that position like a Vettori as a spinner.

Nobody is bringing up the fact that Southee once again gets wickets to better his bowling average for the tour. That's a positive no? What's the average now? 15?
Southee is a decent player though, and, unlike Marshall, doesn't need to dominate these weaker nations to make himself look good.

Before the game started James Marshall had an ODI average of less than 10, that's shocking for somebody who is supposed to be an international batsman. Now that he's scored 160-odd against a pathetic Irish bowling attack we'll likely have to endure his presence in and around the Black Caps team for another series or two. Also, if you think we are short on batting options at #3 then you must be ignoring Jamie How, Ross Taylor and Peter Fulton. Even Daniel Flynn would be a far better choice that James Marshall.
 

Halfpast_Yellow

U19 Vice-Captain
Also, if you think we are short on batting options at #3 then you must be ignoring Jamie How, Ross Taylor and Peter Fulton. Even Daniel Flynn would be a far better choice that James Marshall.
None of those players have played more than 50% of their ODI's at No.3

Let me stick up for Leslie and quote him again with proper emphasis so what he said can be comprehended correctly, before incorrectly disagreed with.

Name me a number 3 ODI batsman from New Zealand that's going to be an automatic selection in that position like a Vettori as a spinner.
Additionally I don't really see the point in having a massive bias against someone in the present by what they did in 2005 in 5 games against Australia, of which two of his dismissals were run outs. JAH Marshall's meager ODI statistical sample isn't even close to being useful as a reasonable sample for which to analyse and base any kind of viewpoint on other than he hasn't exactly been given a decent run in the ODI side yet.
So you can take the Marshall average bashing and shove it, it's actually made the thread pretty annoying to read for me and I side with Leslie on that.

Why must we tear down NZ debutants who don't instantly set the world on fire, it's starting to piss me off TBH. How and O'Brien examples who are finally adjusting recently to a reasonable standard after slow starts in International Cricket.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
. JAH Marshall's meager ODI statistical sample isn't even close to being useful as a reasonable sample for which to analyse and base any kind of viewpoint on other than he hasn't exactly been given a decent run in the ODI side yet.
So you can take the Marshall average bashing and shove it, it's actually made the thread pretty annoying to read for me and I side with Leslie on that.

Why must we tear down NZ debutants who don't instantly set the world on fire, it's starting to piss me off TBH. How and O'Brien examples who are finally adjusting recently to a reasonable standard after slow starts in International Cricket.
For ****'s sake. Maybe some of us have watched some domestic cricket and thought that his technique would not stand up to the extra demands at international level.

O'Brien, however, had a technique that I thought would do better - hence, I haven't slated him.

The other thing that really counts against both Marshalls is the obscene favouritism shown towards the pair of them by Bracewell in the past. So you can take your rampant generalisations and as you've said, "shove it"
 

Leslie1

U19 Captain
Getting nasty,

Any takers still? Aside from Flem (my angst with Vets started here), who should be our number 3? Taylor's brief stay yielded single digits in runs. Trialled there twice if I'm not mistaken (counting South Africa tour).

It's actually a freakin' hard position to nail down with any consistent success unless your technique (up to it or not) is as (edit: reserved) and sound as Dravid and Kallis, who are both players any number 3 should aspire to in that position. Flynn I still think is good for that position, because his technique is easily the best of all the batsmen we have, that includes Taylor and his erratic onside obsessions.

Jamie How would be perfect as well, but alas we prefer him opening.
 
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HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I agree with you leslie that the number three position is a tricky one. Fleming should never have retired, basically. He would have had that position nailed down for a few more years I reckon.

Given the lack of opening options, it would be interesting to see Flynn in that position
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Meh, if they hadn't scored centuries, people would've been rubbishing them for not scoring runs against Ireland.
Obviouly. It's a lose-lose situation. All the more reason for these games not to be played really. Or at least, not after the main show.
 

Nutter

U19 Debutant
I'd like to see Ryder establish himself at 3. Jamie How I reckon is invaluable at the top of the order for us.

ODI team:

How
McCullum
Ryder
Taylor
Flynn/Fulton
Oram
Elliott
Franklin
Vettori
Mills
Southee
 

Somerset

Cricketer Of The Year
I agree with you leslie that the number three position is a tricky one. Fleming should never have retired, basically. He would have had that position nailed down for a few more years I reckon.

Given the lack of opening options, it would be interesting to see Flynn in that position
How at three with Ryder and McCullum opening would be my ideal trio. Though would be interesting to see Flynn in the position, has he batted there for ND with any success?
 

Leslie1

U19 Captain
How at three with Ryder and McCullum opening would be my ideal trio. Though would be interesting to see Flynn in the position, has he batted there for ND with any success?
From Cricket Archive:

"Daniel Flynn is a 23 year old hard-hitting, powerful batsman who has been drafted into the New Zealand squad for the first time, beginning with the tour to England. The young left-handed batsman usually bats up the order and takes pleasure in hitting the ball over the top. He rose into prominence with some strong performances in the under-19 World Cup in 2003-04, where he was also the New Zealand captain, and ever since then has continued his strong run in the domestic matches. In 25 First Class matches, he has scored 1298 runs with four centuries at a decent average of 33.10. Because of his ferocious hitting in the domestic ODIs, he earned a call-up to the T20 squad to face England in March 2008, especially since Jacob Oram was injured. But he didn’t get many chances after that. However, his highly increasing popularity has won him a central contract with New Zealand cricket for 2008-09."

He is batting currently in the ND side as a number 4/5 batsman. An OZ is taking up the number 3 position late in the 07-08 season, and expects to take it on later this season too. I also heard Parlane is unwanted by Wellington just because he's 35 and is returning to ND.

Certainly nothing substantial to suggest he is a number 3, I just think he is because he displays good techniques and is patient with his innings, but also can be a "good cricket strokes' merchant" when the situation demands it, which is what makes a good number 3 as opposed to a number 4 or number 5 where he's a bit of a waste. I prefer to see Ryder at 5/6 at least in tests than Flynn.

I also don't think Flynn can be reckless with his innings, like say a McCullum or a Taylor. He hasn't shown any signs of being able to slog/warf at deliveries, he just plays good cricket shots generally. If anything I think he is like Ian Bell of England. Good up the order, but not necessarily a big hitter for the middle to lower order.

ODI - McCullum, Ryder, How - this has worked so far so we should persist with it.
If both Ryder and McCullum can't slog their way to their 50s, which is more than likely against a better bowling attack than what England dished up in the ODIs, How comes in to rescue the situation at 10/2 for example. If How gets out early too, then either Flynn, Styris or Fulton (in good nick) comes in. Taylor is too erratic, he needs to be batting lower down. His future role is like what McMillan did for us before he defected.

Tests -
How, Redmond, Flynn, Ryder, {Taylor, McCullum (wk), Oram, Vettori, Franklin,} Mills, Southee (Martin 12th?)

{} = Middle order from Taylor onwards is where the bit hitting comes provided one of the top three batsmen just occupy and bat time. How, Redmond and Flynn have shown signs of being prepared to occupy the crease without having to try going for shots. Flynn's partnership with Oram in the first test shows what ideally should be happening, imagine if Flynn had been batting up the order then, and he is still there when Oram comes in and flays away.

Damn long post.
 

Halfpast_Yellow

U19 Vice-Captain
For ****'s sake. Maybe some of us have watched some domestic cricket and thought that his technique would not stand up to the extra demands at international level.
Where did I refer to watching comestic cricket? I'm talking about the ODI-average-based bashing ITT.


The other thing that really counts against both Marshalls is the obscene favouritism shown towards the pair of them by Bracewell in the past. So you can take your rampant generalisations and as you've said, "shove it"
Haha seriously?

Pot. Kettle. Black.
 

Smudge

Hall of Fame Member
For ****'s sake. Maybe some of us have watched some domestic cricket and thought that his technique would not stand up to the extra demands at international level.

O'Brien, however, had a technique that I thought would do better - hence, I haven't slated him.

The other thing that really counts against both Marshalls is the obscene favouritism shown towards the pair of them by Bracewell in the past. So you can take your rampant generalisations and as you've said, "shove it"
Where did I refer to watching comestic cricket? I'm talking about the ODI-average-based bashing ITT.




Haha seriously?

Pot. Kettle. Black.
So, guys, when are we having that Wellington meet-up? :ph34r:
 

99*

International Debutant
I think having Ryder and McCullum opening is better for both players natural game. If McCullum was to open with How, I think there is too much resting on him to score in a quick fashon (I would think the same applies to Ryder if he opens with How) and thus he gets out from a shot the may not needed to been played.

With both batting together, one can feel confident that the other can pick up the slack, and if they both fire, we see 100 up after only 10-15 overs. With the anchor (How) to come in if either fails quickly. We do not need another person in the lower order that plays the 'pinch-hitter' role, we already have Oram, Mills, Franklin (when fit) as our lower order hitters, what we need is a top order that can give us massive start.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Where did I refer to watching comestic cricket? I'm talking about the ODI-average-based bashing ITT.
What about the fact that the combination of his lack of adequate technique coupled with his lack of success at international level so far suggests that he's far from being anywhere near a decent, long term solution for the #3 position in the Black Caps line up. Its all well and good telling someone to ignore the statistics, but when your own eyes can see that he's not cut out for it, some additional evidence is available. Making a decision based on one single criteria is pretty narrow minded. Personally, I'm making my view of Marshall based on his overall failings and not only due to those numbers on his record.

If its any consolation, if New Zealand ever need a specialist fielder in the squad - then I'd be selecting between Marshall and Patel.

And Leslie, Parlane Senior is definately on the way to ND, Parlane Junior is (currently) staying in Wellington.
 

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