*Official* Australia in decline thread

[Sanz]

It just shows how poor a captain Ricky is. Contarary to the belief shared by some aussies that Ricky is aan excellent captain, it is getting increasingly obvious that he isn't.

He inherited a great team of great players and his success as captain was a result of the system that gave such world class players on a consistent basis. It is much harder to find a world class bowler than it is to find a world class batsman. And it is the bowlers who win you (more)matches.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I don't think Ponting is a bad captain, but I do think he has taken a few backward steps as captain since losing the big names. He doesn't seem to have the Aussie confidence- the swagger. His leadership is a lot more conservative and that has never been a good shade for Australian captains.

 

[itduzz]

Rest of world spinning ahead

AUSTRALIA have been warned to prepare for a period of pain in which their spinners are overshadowed by the rest of the world for the first time in more than 15 years.

A man of near-retirement age, 36-year-old Victoria leg-spinner Bryce McGain, is the next best with an impressive 38 wickets at 34.78 during the last first-class summer.

But the returns from other spinners, including South Australia off-spinner Dan Cullen, who averaged 49 last season, and Queensland leg-spinner Dan Doran, who averaged 72 last season, are ordinary at best.

Redbacks leg-spinner Cullen Bailey, once considered the next big thing, cannot even get a game for his state, while former Australia off-spinner Nathan Hauritz is earmarked primarily as a one-day specialist.

Former Australia leg-spinner Kerry O'Keeffe is worried the immediate spin future is not bright.

"The cupboard is looking pretty bare," O'Keeffe said.

"I wish Beau Casson all the best but I think Australia will have to adjust to a period where the rest of the world has better spinners than us.

"I heard some great reports about some spinners coming out of Pakistan at an under-19 level."

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,23806299-23212,00.html

 

[Top_Cat]

Oh gee, calamity. You can see just by their results that not having a world-class spinner really got to Chappell's side in the 70's when the best they had was a toss-up between Mallett, O'Keefe, Jenner and Gleeson.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

West Indies won't have better spinners than Australia, largely on account of not playing spinners.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Oh gee, calamity. You can see just by their results that not having a world-class spinner really got to Chappell's side in the 70's when the best they had was a toss-up between Mallett, O'Keefe, Jenner and Gleeson.

Can't really compare eras like that, TBH.

 

[Top_Cat]

Can't really compare eras like that, TBH.

The point remains; that other teams in the world have better spinners means little if your own bowlers are doing the job. If Australia come back to the pack, it'll be because of more than just the lack of a decent spin option.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I don't see the issue as the lack of a quality spinner actually. It's the lack of a world class bowler. Warne wasn't just a quality spinner. He was one of the best bowlers the game has seen. The fact that his presence in the attack added variation was not the crucial thing about Warne. It was just that he was, as a bowler, damn good. In summation, it's not the lack of a spinner that could hinder Australia, it's the lack of world class quality to back up the new ball.

 

[LongHopCassidy]

I don't see the issue as the lack of a quality spinner actually. It's the lack of a world class bowler. Warne wasn't just a quality spinner. He was one of the best bowlers the game has seen. The fact that his presence in the attack added variation was not the crucial thing about Warne. It was just that he was, as a bowler, damn good. In summation, it's not the lack of a spinner that could hinder Australia, it's the lack of world class quality to back up the new ball.

AWTA, every word.

 

[itduzz]

remember the days....when aussie fans used to laugh at Ashley Giles

Now all the cricket nations will laugh at aussie spinners for next 15 years

 

[SJS]

The problem is genuine but I doubt if it is just spinners. I dont think an Australian attack of four years ago with McGrath, Lee, Gillespie and Kasprowitz would have alowed this West Indies side to save the last test.

Australia's bowling resources are looking increasingly modest. The spinners situation looks more dire because their numbers are always fewer and Warne's are such HUGE boots to fill.

The gaps between good spinners in Australia are not new. There was a big one between Noble and Grimmett.

Warne himself did not have a decent predecessor as far back as Bruce Yardley and for a great spinner before Warne we have to go back to Benaud.

With great spinners, Australia have been a world force but they have been able to manage without them too for reasonable periods with a formidable pace attack. Now they seem to have mediocrity hounding that department too although, I am aware that my Australian friends, at least some of them, do not subscribe to that view point.

 

[honestbharani]

I never really thought much of him as a captain. IT is very easy to pull off some great moves when you have great players backing you up. The challenge is to pull them off when the guys aren't that good. And it is hard to put it in words, but I just never got the feeling he was anything special as a captain in the matches I have seen when he has been in charge. Not the same way you feel watching a Taylor, Waugh, Ganguly etc. when they are leading. Maybe he is just low profile or something but still.....

 

[SJS]

Welcome to life without McGrath and Warne. As I mentioned when they retired last year, I expect them to still dominate matches, but the main issue was going to be bowling on the last day. If the Test goes to the last day and you need 10 wickets it's going to be tough.

And this was September 2005.

A quick study of the composition of the Australian side over the last fiftenn years shows a very interesting trend.

I took 6 batsmen, one wicket keeper and four bowlers for each year by the simple method of choosing those who played most test matches during the year. And tracked the changes in the side over this time. It showed many intersting things one of which was the phasing out of the old and the replenishment with fresh blood.

Here are the years and the new ball bowlers who went out of the side (even though they may have played an odd game or two).

1991 : Alderman
1991 : Rackmann
1992 : Reid
1993 : --------
1994 : Hughes
1995 : -------
1996 : McDermott
1997 : -------
1998 : Reiffell
1999 : --------
2000 : --------
2001 : -------
2002 : -------
2003 : -------
2004 : ------- --(unless one wants to include Bichel)

And what of fresh blood induction??

1994 : McGrath
1995 : ---------
1996 : Gillespie
1997 : ----------
1998 : Kasprowicz
1999 : ---------
2000 : Lee
2001 : -------
2002 : --------
2003 : -------
2004 : -------
2005 : --------

The problem is self evident. There is a shortage of (numbers in)* quality fast bowlers coming up and, I dare say, even the quality is going down.

(numbers in)* : added now to make it clearer

Since then 2006, 2007 and 2008 have come and almost gone. The names have got added to the retirees in McGrath, Gillespie, Kasprowitz (kind of) but no great addition to new entrants. Even if one adds Stuart Clarke, the cupboard still looks bare over the eight years since Lee made his debut.

 

[Burgey]

It just shows how poor a captain Ricky is. Contarary to the belief shared by some aussies that Ricky is aan excellent captain, it is getting increasingly obvious that he isn't.

He inherited a great team of great players and his success as captain was a result of the system that gave such world class players on a consistent basis. It is much harder to find a world class bowler than it is to find a world class batsman. And it is the bowlers who win you (more)matches.

It's not his job to find a world calss bowler though. The Australian system doesn't guarantee success at international level. What it does though is pretty much ensure they get the best out of what's on offer.

I never really thought much of him as a captain. IT is very easy to pull off some great moves when you have great players backing you up. The challenge is to pull them off when the guys aren't that good. And it is hard to put it in words, but I just never got the feeling he was anything special as a captain in the matches I have seen when he has been in charge. Not the same way you feel watching a Taylor, Waugh, Ganguly etc. when they are leading. Maybe he is just low profile or something but still.....

Captains may be able to achieve things through the force of their captaincy from time to time, but really it comes down to how good a side you've got.

I mean, you get set the most imaginative fileds ever seen, but if the bowlers roll out pus like MacGill has this series, what does it matter?

It's not insignificant that the day 5 draws Australia have had in recent series have all come on really flat decks. This test, the one in Adelaide v India this year and the one in Perth v SA a few years back were really docile tracks. The Perth test was a draw in which both Warne and McGrath were playing, IIRC.

I agree Ponting doesn't seem to have the flair of a Taylor, who was probably our most tactically astute skipper since I Chappell, or the remorselessness of a Waugh. But maybe it was a lot easier for those guys to display those qualities when they had such wonderful bowlers at their disposal.

If a large portion of the coming back to the field is Ponting's fault, we should ask ourselves what either or his two immediate predecessors would have done differently in these tests if they had Ponting's attack at their disposal? I suspect the answer may be, not a lot.

 

[SJS]

It's not his job to find a world calss bowler though. The Australian system doesn't guarantee success at international level. What it does though is pretty much ensure they get the best out of what's on offer.



Captains may be able to achieve things through the force of their captaincy from time to time, but really it comes down to how good a side you've got.

I mean, you get set the most imaginative fileds ever seen, but if the bowlers roll out pus like MacGill has this series, what does it matter?

It's not insignificant that the day 5 draws Australia have had in recent series have all come on really flat decks. This test, the one in Adelaide v India this year and the one in Perth v SA a few years back were really docile tracks. The Perth test was a draw in which both Warne and McGrath were playing, IIRC.

I agree Ponting doesn't seem to have the flair of a Taylor, who was probably our most tactically astute skipper since I Chappell, or the remorselessness of a Waugh. But maybe it was a lot easier for those guys to display those qualities when they had such wonderful bowlers at their disposal.

If a large portion of the coming back to the field is Ponting's fault, we should ask ourselves what either or his two immediate predecessors would have done differently in these tests if they had Ponting's attack at their disposal? I suspect the answer may be, not a lot.

I completely agree.

Its NOT (sorry for the typo earlier) Pontings fault. In fact, he is being a 'good' captain by not saying that the new bowlers coming into the Australian side to replace their formidable predecessors are good too. Thats important to do, at least in public so as not to demoralise his team.

But he has done it long enough and this, the failure to get West Indies on that last day, must hurt for a side used to dominate as Australia has over the last decade and a half. So he finally said it.

I will not be surprised if in private discussions with selectors and other top honchos in Cricket Australia this hasn't been mentioned much earlier. Its just that he has now said it in the public domain.

 

[honestbharani]

It's not his job to find a world calss bowler though. The Australian system doesn't guarantee success at international level. What it does though is pretty much ensure they get the best out of what's on offer.



Captains may be able to achieve things through the force of their captaincy from time to time, but really it comes down to how good a side you've got.

I mean, you get set the most imaginative fileds ever seen, but if the bowlers roll out pus like MacGill has this series, what does it matter?

It's not insignificant that the day 5 draws Australia have had in recent series have all come on really flat decks. This test, the one in Adelaide v India this year and the one in Perth v SA a few years back were really docile tracks. The Perth test was a draw in which both Warne and McGrath were playing, IIRC.

I agree Ponting doesn't seem to have the flair of a Taylor, who was probably our most tactically astute skipper since I Chappell, or the remorselessness of a Waugh. But maybe it was a lot easier for those guys to display those qualities when they had such wonderful bowlers at their disposal.

If a large portion of the coming back to the field is Ponting's fault, we should ask ourselves what either or his two immediate predecessors would have done differently in these tests if they had Ponting's attack at their disposal? I suspect the answer may be, not a lot.

I am not saying he is a poor captain but just that I always felt that a number of ppl, including some here at CW, were over rating his captaincy skills.


As you said, captaincy is not something that can be definitively judged because it is a function of so many things. Perhpas the best way to rate captains is by forming opinions having watched them and thinking of maybe how other captains would have gone in similar situations. That way, IMO, I don't think Ponting is as good as some people make him out to be.

 

[Burgey]

remember the days....when aussie fans used to laugh at Ashley Giles

Now all the cricket nations will laugh at aussie spinners for next 15 years

That will no doubt be a Greigy to come back and haunt you in the future.

You cannot judge these new players coming in on less than 10 tests.

Casson is an unkown quantity and most likely will not be a long term solution, but 15 years is a long, long time.

With the pace bowling, Lee and Clark will do a good job, they need another solid contributor to back them up. I've been a critic of Johnson on this tour especially, but I'd frankly not borne in mind that these are his first away tests - he seems to have been around a while, but really he's still a novice at test level. Look at our opponents this series as an example - Edwards looked all at sea after a good debut, until recently. Dyson's of the view that players begin to blossom a bit after 20-30 tests when they feel at home at that level, and that view frankly makes a fair bit of sense.

These things take time - not everyone comes in and sets the world alight from their debut test. The benefit Australian players currently have is they are coming into a side which can still, for the most part, put good scores on the board and which has 2 senior quicks who are quality. That at least gives them the opportunity to settle into the side with less pressure than was the case in, for example, the mid-late 80s.

 

[bond21]

It's not his job to find a world calss bowler though. The Australian system doesn't guarantee success at international level. What it does though is pretty much ensure they get the best out of what's on offer.



Captains may be able to achieve things through the force of their captaincy from time to time, but really it comes down to how good a side you've got.

I mean, you get set the most imaginative fileds ever seen, but if the bowlers roll out pus like MacGill has this series, what does it matter?

It's not insignificant that the day 5 draws Australia have had in recent series have all come on really flat decks. This test, the one in Adelaide v India this year and the one in Perth v SA a few years back were really docile tracks. The Perth test was a draw in which both Warne and McGrath were playing, IIRC.

I agree Ponting doesn't seem to have the flair of a Taylor, who was probably our most tactically astute skipper since I Chappell, or the remorselessness of a Waugh. But maybe it was a lot easier for those guys to display those qualities when they had such wonderful bowlers at their disposal.

If a large portion of the coming back to the field is Ponting's fault, we should ask ourselves what either or his two immediate predecessors would have done differently in these tests if they had Ponting's attack at their disposal? I suspect the answer may be, not a lot.

you are completely wrong Burgo.

Ponting goes to all the Sheffield Shield games and scouts State players for the test side.

The selectors are just a public image, Ponting does all the selecting, he, and he alone is responsible for all the results of the Australian Cricket Team.

I hope they keep Johnson in the team, hes going to be a top class bowler.

 

[bond21]

I am not saying he is a poor captain but just that I always felt that a number of ppl, including some here at CW, were over rating his captaincy skills.


As you said, captaincy is not something that can be definitively judged because it is a function of so many things. Perhpas the best way to rate captains is by forming opinions having watched them and thinking of maybe how other captains would have gone in similar situations. That way, IMO, I don't think Ponting is as good as some people make him out to be.

how can you judge a captain when you arent in the team?

The Australian players have more credibility when it comes to Ponting's captaincy than anyone, because they play under him, noone here does.

 

[roseboy64]

Can't compare Edwards to Johnson. Completely different situations.