The greatest batsman from each Test team

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Headley got to play 22 Tests (which I imagine was a fair bit back then when you consider it took Bradman 20 years to play 52 Tests) and got ten centuries and five 50s and ended up with a Test average of just under 61 and FC average of just under 70 (from 103 FC games). True he only averaged 37 against Australia, but he was able to adapt to Australian conditions and bowlers like O'Reilly (IIRC he elimated one of his favourite shots through the leg side to avoid getting out that way) was able to make two centuries and basically lead from the front with a lot weaker West Indian team. His feats were pretty impressive.

Or do we discount ever cricketer from before 1950 as over-rated hacks?

Richard is rating him ABOVE Sobers ffs!

Headley's legacy is much more than his stats BUT as a batsman, his only resounding successes were against largely 2nd choice English attacks

And just how well did he "adapt" to Australia, he averaged 37 - if we were to judge him on the same basis as other great players, people like Richard would be saying that he had been exposed

And dont bother mentioning fc stats, Warne would've been the second choice spinner for Vic for much of his career if that was a criteria

 

[Richard]

Just because one player couldn't hack the domestic game, doesn't mean a thing really. Almost invariably, the best players at domestic level are also the best at international.

Like it or not, Headley's phenomenal First-Class average does count for something. And he faced first-choice England attacks often enough, and even some of the non-first-choice bowlers he faced were usually still extremely threatening.

 

[Ikki]

I would not put Akram next to Imran...IMO akram was the greatest ODI bowler...but i think he is second to Waqar Younis.

Rating the greatest ever, because its hard to choose between players who were better than the rest in thier prime or who were better than the rest at average throuout hier career.
I havnt seen any cricket before 1990...so my contemperary list

Australia - R Ponting
West Indies - Lara (i have seen clips of viv richards, and he looked more charasmatic)
England - Cant find a "batsman" who was truely great
India - Sachin ( Laxman at his peak was better than any)
Pakistan - Yousaf (Technically better and does better abraod, But inzi is a match winner)
Zimbabwe - A Flower
New Zealand - Cant find any
Sri Lanka - Sangakkara
South Africa - Kallis

Ponting better than Bradman?

 

[Richard]

Obviously only players who've played since he's been watching cricket.

 

[DJellett]

Agree with Richard on most counts.

Suggestions of Kallis not only don't suit the criteria but I also find them ridiculous.

England - Jack Hobbs
Australia - Sir Donald Bradman
South Africa - Barry Richards
West Indies - Brian Lara
India - Sunil Gavaskar
New Zealand - Martin Crowe
Pakistan - Hanif Mohammed
Sri Lanka - Aravinda de Silva
Zimbabwe - Andy Flower

 

[Ikki]

Obviously only players who've played since he's been watching cricket.

Oops. Serves me right. I just took a quick glance at the list.

 

[DJellett]

ONly one point of difference from Richard now; true, bowlers are more easily picked.

But ffs man, Warne doesn't even rate a mention? The best by far as far as I'm concerned.

England - Syd Barnes
Australia - Shane Warne
South Africa - Alan Donald
West Indies - Malcolm Marshall
India - Kapil Dev
New Zealand - Richard Hadlee
Pakistan - Imran Khan
Sri Lanka - Muttiah Muralitharan
Zimbabwe - Heath Streak

 

[Richard]

But ffs man, Warne doesn't even rate a mention? The best by far as far as I'm concerned.

Nah, 'fraid I think Lindwall, Lillee and McGrath are all notably superior to Warne.

The fact he was very poor for the best part of 3 years ('97/98-'00/01) counts very heavily against him. Also, Warne wasn't to my mind anywhere near as good when he was bowling well (which was the vast majority of the time of course) as the aforementioned 3 seamers are.

I've said it before - I don't even consider it a closed-case that Warne is Australia's greatest wristspinner. O'Reilly, Grimmett and he all have a fair case IMO.

 

[Ikki]

ONly one point of difference from Richard now; true, bowlers are more easily picked.

But ffs man, Warne doesn't even rate a mention? The best by far as far as I'm concerned.

England - Syd Barnes
Australia - Shane Warne
South Africa - Alan Donald
West Indies - Malcolm Marshall
India - Kapil Dev
New Zealand - Richard Hadlee
Pakistan - Imran Khan
Sri Lanka - Muttiah Muralitharan
Zimbabwe - Heath Streak

Good list. Agree with it all, only somewhat hesitant on Imran Khan.

 

[DJellett]

Nah, 'fraid I think Lindwall, Lillee and McGrath are all notably superior to Warne.

The fact he was very poor for the best part of 3 years ('97/98-'00/01) counts very heavily against him. Also, Warne wasn't to my mind anywhere near as good when he was bowling well (which was the vast majority of the time of course) as the aforementioned 3 seamers are.

I've said it before - I don't even consider it a closed-case that Warne is Australia's greatest wristspinner. O'Reilly, Grimmett and he all have a fair case IMO.

Don't disagree entirely and do NOT want to get into a statistically-charged war (I'll lose), but the sheer aura of Warne was more than that of any other bowler. He could be considered a threat in any condition against any opponent. Even now, in the IPL 20/20's, he is considered dangerous when the vast majority of the best bowlers in the world cop a hiding in the same format.

Also think you have somewhat of a past-player bias; not questioning your argument or your knowledge, for I know both are vast, just something I've noticed...
I realise it is difficult to acknowledge someone from your own lifetime as a great, but surely Warne must be considered in Australia's top 5 bowlers of all time?

 

[DJellett]

Good list. Agree with it all, only somewhat hesitant on Imran Khan.

Other suggestion?
I drew a blank.

 

[DJellett]

Other suggestion?
I drew a blank.

A mental blank, obviously. Apologies, and wish to ammend original list:


England - Syd Barnes
Australia - Shane Warne
South Africa - Alan Donald
West Indies - Malcolm Marshall
India - Kapil Dev
New Zealand - Richard Hadlee
Pakistan - Wasim Akram
Sri Lanka - Muttiah Muralitharan
Zimbabwe - Heath Streak

 

[Ikki]

Other suggestion?
I drew a blank.

Wasim Akram.

EDIT/ADD: I see you've put him in. Still a good list and I'd still be hesitant. They both have very good cases IMO.

 

[silentstriker]

I really continue to be surprised when people rate Akram over Imran in bowling, but that's just personal tastes. Imran is in the top tier of all time great bowlers, which Wasim, IMO, is not. I rate Wasim and Donald as near the top of the second tier of bowlers, personally.

In any case:

Australia: McGrath
Sri Lanka: Muralitharan
India: Dev
Pakistan: Imran Khan
New Zealand: Hadlee
England: Trueman
West Indies: Marshall
South Africa: Donald

 

[Ikki]

I really continue to be surprised when people rate Akram over Imran in bowling, but that's just personal tastes. Imran is in the top tier of all time great bowlers, which Wasim, IMO, is not. I rate Wasim and Donald as near the top of the second tier of bowlers, personally.

How do you figure that? Their records for the most part are identical. When I compare the two players I generally disregard the minnows of their day: Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, respectively. Their records touch very closely. If anything, IMO, Wasim played better sides than Imran too.

 

[silentstriker]

How do you figure that? Their records for the most part are identical. When I compare the two players I generally disregard the minnows of their day: Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, respectively. Their records touch very closely. If anything, IMO, Wasim played better sides than Imran too.

Yes, statistics are very similar between the players. However, when Imran played against the greats of his time, he outperformed his counterparts. Especially his series vs. West Indies. Wasim was an excellent bowler, but I've recently watched many many Tests of Imran, and I just don't think he was as good for as long. Imran wasn't as good as Malcolm Marshall, but he was right up there in the as the best in the world.

 

[Ikki]

Yes, statistics are very similar between the players. However, when Imran played against the greats of his time, he outperformed his counterparts. Especially his series vs. West Indies. Wasim was an excellent bowler, but I've recently watched many many Tests of Imran, and I just don't think he was as good for as long. Imran wasn't as good as Malcolm Marshall, but he was right up there in the as the best in the world.

Wasim also played great against the Windies and also against the Aussies later on. Fair enough on the rest though.

 

[aussie]

I really want to rank Merchant higher than anyone, but alas, he didn't play enough. I would certainly rank him higher than Gavaskar if I could though, and in an Indian XI, he would make it before Gavaskar.

With that said, discounting Merchant, Sachin is ahead of Gavaskar fairly comfortably for mine, with Dravid pulling up a close third.

That would be a very strange & hard thing to do especially given the quality of bowling Sunny faced during his career.

 

[aussie]

I have never and will never consider Viv Richards to be as good a batsman as George Headley or Garfield Sobers, and certainly not Azharuddin (regardless of his match-fixing escapades) in the same class as either Gavaskar or Tendulkar.

Inzy vs Javed is a more open case, and I'd not have that many qualms about either being considered Pakistan's best.

Hmm interesting dawg, care to state why you think so?

 

[Richard]

Because Headley and Sobers were better at scoring runs.