Rate the captains

[Richard]

Amid the Brearley-vs-Lloyd thread several interesting questions are raised. So I feel it best for a separate thread discussing not two but many great cricket captains. I don't include Stephen Waugh or Clive Lloyd as I don't feel either were particularly good captains - and Allan Border is included with great hesitency too. But obviously they will receive their share of discussion.

I post a poll for people to vote for who they think best - but as I say, the idea is not really about who's best, but trying to establish why those who were good were so good.

 

[ret]

from the ones that I have seen in no particular order

Mark Taylor ----> liked his attitude to play for a win .... mostly positive and aggressive

Martin Crowe ----> great motivator, lead from the front and innovative [opened the bowling with Deepak Patel, the off spinner

Imran Khan ----> same qualities as Crowe .... and very attacking

Tendulkar ----> great motivator, carried the burden of the side, good strategist, has ability to bring out the best from players

Dhoni ----> a cool head, absorbs pressure, innovative, strategist and attacking


Those who almost made it

Ganguly ----> could have made the list for his aggression but was found wanting on the tactic front, along with being selfish on occasion and continuing to open even when seriously out of touch

Ranatunga ----> pretty cool customer but sometimes became unidimensional like over reliance on Murali, seen him set a packed leg-side field and then ofc the decision to continue to bat on a flat track to get that world record of 900+ instead of trying to make a match out of it, esp when SL hardly beat Ind in tests

Cronje ----> good but for that scandal

Waugh ----> strong mental strength but not in the league of taylor

 

[Richard]

I'd add - wouldn't hesitate to include Cronje in this list but for the match-fixing scandal. And while in many ways this is unrelated to his captaincy skills - many of his spurs were won before he even so much as spoke to bookmakers - there are elements of his captaincy that are and will always be entwined with the match-fixing scandal, and make it impossible for me to consider him alongside other skippers who are not known to have had any such illicit associations.

BTW, Ranatunga had no chance of a result in that Premadasa game in 1997. It'd have taken 7 days at least to get a result on that pitch.

 

[Athlai]

Voted for Fleming due to him being the best in my lifetime, and captaincy is such a hard thing to truly appreciate through the history books.

 

[Richard]

Gotta love the way Fleming gets 4 votes before most people get 1... and at least 3 from young Kiwis too.

Seriously, though - wouldn't be completely outrageous to suggest him as the greatest captain ever, though I'd not really think too hard about it TBH.

 

[Burgey]

Two gullies and a backward point to Martyn make one the best captain ever?
Fleming was very good, but better than Brearley? Jardine? Even Armstrong, Chappell or Benaud in terms of on-field stuff? For their unifying ability, Worrell and Imran were both top shelf as well. Sir Frank's appointment was a huge deal for the time, and what his side did here in 60-61 left a massive legacy on the game.

 

[NZTailender]

Two gullies and a backward point to Martyn make one the best captain ever?
Fleming was very good, but better than Brearley? Jardine? Even Armstrong, Chappell or Benaud in terms of on-field stuff? For their unifying ability, Worrell and Imran were both top shelf as well. Sir Frank's appointment was a huge deal for the time, and what his side did here in 60-61 left a massive legacy on the game.

Do I have to repeat myself? Do you realise he played against other nations?

 

[Richard]

For their unifying ability, Worrell and Imran were both top shelf as well.

And because they had such rare skill in this capacity, their tactical on-field acumen is often overlooked. But both were sharp as tacks here too.

 

[Michaelf7777777]

Richie Benaud of the ones you list for his agression, tactical ability and ingenuity and motivation.

Although I think you are being quite harsh on some other captains including Sir Donald Bradman, Lindsay Hassett and Herbie Collins by not including them in the poll.

 

[Burgey]

Do I have to repeat myself? Do you realise he played against other nations?

No you don't, and I'm not saying he wasn't a fine captain. I'm simply questioning Richard's comment about him being arguably the greatest captain of all time.

 

[Flem274*]

Fleming is the only one I have seen so i can't really judge the others, hence Fleming.

And can we just erase the little myth that Fleming is rated so highly only because of field settings to Australian batsmen? Try captaining (and winning/competing) in games with the likes of Tama Canning and Iain O'Brien.

 

[Burgey]

Fleming is the only one I have seen so i can't really judge the others, hence Fleming.

And can we just erase the little myth that Fleming is rated so highly only because of field settings to Australian batsmen? Try captaining (and winning/competing) in games with the likes of Tama Canning and Iain O'Brien.

I know, I know. It's part of his mystique though.

I mean, AB won some tests in the 80s with a meh side as well. But I wouldn't rate him as highly as Fleming or others as a skipper.

 

[SJS]

No Close ?

 

[SJS]

There ia a lovely book called The Great Captains - edited by Arlott and first published in 1971.

It lists (in order of their respective careers)

1. Mclaren
2. Warner
3. Jardine
4. Sellers
5. Wooller
6. Surridge
7. Cheetham
8. Worrell

Those in red are missing from our poll - one presumes because almost all of them (barring South African Cheetham) made a name for themselves as captains basically in domestic cricket.

To the list of great captains outside test cricket, post 1970, one could add Clive Rice and ML Jaisimha.

 

[Top_Cat]

Surprised at the lack of Chappelli love here. Of those I've read about but never seen, I'd put him at the top. Top-shelf commentator too when he's not rambling about the old days and concentrates on what's actually happening on the field at that moment.

Of those I've seen, Shane Warne. Let's face it, for much of his career, his strengths as a leggie were his accuracy and expertise in the fundamentals (hard-spun leggie, etc.) as he didn't have a huge bag of tricks, moreso variations on a theme. Tactical nous got him a lot of wickets and on that note, as a captain, I've never seen better. Him and Lehmann going head to head as captains would be a treat to watch because when facing each other as players, it was all class.

 

[gettingbetter]

Suggestions to someone to create a worst captain poll.

 

[Richard]

Don't really see the point TBH, you could name Joe Higgins who once captained Village Specials XI there.

By-and-large, if you have a lengthy spell as a Test captain, you can't be bad.

 

[Richard]

Although I think you are being quite harsh on some other captains including Sir Donald Bradman, Lindsay Hassett and Herbie Collins by not including them in the poll.

Bradman was never thought to have been a particularly outstanding captain, merely adaquete and of course a phenomenal batsman; Collins I know little to nothing about as his time was before the 1930s and I only know bits and pieces there (hence McLaren); and Hassett I did consider, but while he did a good job I don't think he's up with the very best.

No Close ?

There ia a lovely book called The Great Captains - edited by Arlott and first published in 1971.

It lists (in order of their respective careers)

1. Mclaren
2. Warner
3. Jardine
4. Sellers
5. Wooller
6. Surridge
7. Cheetham
8. Worrell

Those in red are missing from our poll - one presumes because almost all of them (barring South African Cheetham) made a name for themselves as captains basically in domestic cricket.

To the list of great captains outside test cricket, post 1970, one could add Clive Rice and ML Jaisimha.

Pelham Warner I could have included I suppose, but I didn't think there a lot of point in mentioning the likes of Close, Sellers, Surridge or Rice because few on this board have read enough of historical domestic cricket to know much of their skill. I myself don't know that much. I thought it best to keep it to those who have achieved notable deeds at international level.

Cheetham is an interesting one, though. I wonder, sometimes, about a Cheetham vs Bacher poll, and whether anyone would even post.

 

[Nutter]

Flem led teams chock full of pie chuckers and number 11 batsmen masquerading as our top order, and still did well.

I'm a big Steve Waugh fan, but looks like he didn't make the poll.

 

[Richard]

No - as I said in the opening post, I rate Stephen Waugh's captaincy as no more than adaquete. Certainly not close to the level of those in this poll - it didn't need to be.

And really, it's a myth that Fleming's teams did well when they truly were awful. No captain can do that, however good. New Zealand did well when they had good and decent players with them, but Fleming always made the most of whatever it was he had.