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**Official** England in New Zealand

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Nah, people with connection to England just often forget how roundly awful they are at ODIs.

And that won't change as long as they keep picking players with little or no pedigree at the one-day game.

Too often people are willing to claim England are improving at ODIs on flimsy, nothing, evidence. WoW, so we won a handful of games against India and Sri Lanka - it's always the same when we win 2 or 3 games.

England are long overdue a good ODI thrashing, and while I thought that last time we were over here (and NZ actually had a really good side at that time) and it turned-out NZ let us off the hook, I'm still fairly confident it might happen.

Obviously, even if we do never see Mustard in a ODI shirt again (and it is something that Mustard is the only blatantly obviously totally-out-of-place figure in the most recent team selected) it'll only mean the next Mustard\Wright\Bresnan\Mahmood comes in instead. But we can always live in hope that one day they might actually pick the right players in whichever accidental method they use to pick them.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
I suppose Iain O'Brien deserves a go as he's been in their mix for awhile but why aren't the looking at another younger bowling option like Leighton Burtt. He's 23, played 2 or 3 seasons now for Canterbury and looks to be coming along very nicely.

11 wickets in the State Shield at an avg of 15.

With the Black Caps all over England right now, it might have been good to see an up & coming bowler thrown in to see what he can do.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Bopara remains one of the most hideously poor players ever to grace international cricket since, well, Saj Mahmood? One would reckon England have some sort of quota of cricketers of Asian extraction going on, so why not at least pick a fellow who can impress, ie Mascarenhas?
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Obviously if you don't perform for a long while you should be dropped, but I'd be more concerned if he's done nothing in the ODI arena at the end of his next series. Give him a bit longer to get back in form.
I had high hopes for Bell at the end of the Indian series, just after he'd scored his maiden century and was averaging almost 40. He hasn't lived up to my expectations since then, and I feel his form is poor enough to warrant him being dropped. Unless he makes a score of note in the next game, then I'd like to see somebody else bat #3. Unfortuantely by that time it will probably be too late for England.

Based on what? He has hardly set the world on fire in T20's where he has to be attacking, so what makes you think he'll do the job in ODI's? Having Shah at 3 would be a better option than using Wright, if you were to drop Bell.
Wright was just another name that could be chucked into the mix, I'm not actively advocating his selection. As you say, Shah would be better, was would Bopara, but I reckon Wright would score more quickly, and maybe more than Bell has been of late.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bopara remains one of the most hideously poor players ever to grace international cricket since, well, Saj Mahmood? One would reckon England have some sort of quota of cricketers of Asian extraction going on, so why not at least pick a fellow who can impress, ie Mascarenhas?
Bopara's simply a beneficiary (or non-beneficiary, given all the supposed beneficiaries have had a wretched time) of the sort of nonsense that's benefited, amongst others, Ian Blackwell, Owais Shah, Matthew Prior, Alex Wharf, Geraint Jones, Jamie Troughton and Robert Key - ie, a combination of one-season-wonderness and game-form-muddling.

Plus the "he's young, he's got potential, he WILL get better even though he's done roughly nothing in his career so far" nonsense that's seen us have the likes of Plunkett and the even worse Loudon and Bresnan.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
The problem is though, that alot of these guys are introduced when they're 19,20. If England want these guys to come good then they've got to invest in them for a few years.
You look at players like Kyle Mills, Jacob Oram, Scott Styris in the NZ team. They took ages to start showing their promise.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Picking players aged 19 and 20 rarely works. They're almost never up to it at that age.

Invest in them, sure, great - send them to Academies, organise tours, England A tours even, but don't go picking them for international cricket when they're patently not up to it.

Not least because they might well never be. I've said it many times - I don't ever see Plunkett becoming an international-standard bowler, less still Bresnan.

Pick the players who actually have already started to deliver on their promise. Not players who might amount to something if you've guessed right.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Sziasztok! Unicum! Margitsziget!
I haven't seen Jesse Ryder play before and he looks really good, quite similar to other Kiwi batsmen in that he is mainly an eye player, but what an eye he has. He should definately play in the test side, maybe at the expense of Fulton. Then we will see if his technique can stand up to it.

Ross Taylor concerns me because as a lot of people have highlighted, he continually plays across the line far too often. He could really use some time in County Cricket, however, he has a two-match ban for excessive sledging in the Norfolk League to serve before he could play in England (one of my housemates played with him a few years back, Gareth Hopkins has also played at the club). However in these two young players we have some great talent to refine. Bracewell isn't the person to do it, but maybe John Wright could.
No not at the expense of Fulton. Sinclair fine, that would be a fair argument but Fulton has shown in his time:

a) Consistency in ODIs

b) Very, very good FC record. Up there with the Flemings and the Sinclairs and the Ryders

c) Hasn't fired in tests yet but its only a matter of time

Sorry for sounding like I'm having a go at you but I can't stand people under estimating Peter Fulton. He's one of our shining lights for the future.
 

Brett Dale

School Boy/Girl Captain
Ryder got interviewed tonight on the main news programme in NewZealand, I think they may be getting carried away, I think they should wait until the tests, before they start singing his praises.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Bopara's simply a beneficiary (or non-beneficiary, given all the supposed beneficiaries have had a wretched time) of the sort of nonsense that's benefited, amongst others, Ian Blackwell, Owais Shah, Matthew Prior, Alex Wharf, Geraint Jones, Jamie Troughton and Robert Key - ie, a combination of one-season-wonderness and game-form-muddling.

Plus the "he's young, he's got potential, he WILL get better even though he's done roughly nothing in his career so far" nonsense that's seen us have the likes of Plunkett and the even worse Loudon and Bresnan.
Bopara's test & noneday selection need to be viewed separately. It's previously been said by a few of us that his selection for the tests in SL, when he leapfrogged Shah on the basis of nothing remotely substantial was sheer madness of the kind I thought we'd kissed goodbye to about 10 years ago.

The oneday side is another matter though. He has played two significant innings when nearly all around him were failing horribly, one of which won a game which we should have lost by a mile, and the other came closer to doing the same than anyone could reasonably expected. That's why he's still playing, even if his current form isn't pretty, and even if his running out of Cook was as stupid a piece of cricket as you could wish to see.

As for his inital selection, we all know that you'd struggle to name an XI based on outstanding domestic List A form, so there's always going to be hunches. Bopara was certainly no worse a pick than the guys you've mentioned, and we could all add to that list fairly easily. Admirable restraint on your part, btw, to the previous post. Given the cast of mediocre cricketers of all hues who have played for England's one day side , I shudder to think why anyone would want to bring race into this. 'Hideous' indeed.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
The oneday side is another matter though. He has played two significant innings when nearly all around him were failing horribly, one of which won a game which we should have lost by a mile, and the other came closer to doing the same than anyone could reasonably expected. That's why he's still playing, even if his current form isn't pretty, and even if his running out of Cook was as stupid a piece of cricket as you could wish to see.
True, but I can't help but think that this is also playing a part in his selection:

MEK Hussey b Bopara 6
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bopara's test & noneday selection need to be viewed separately. It's previously been said by a few of us that his selection for the tests in SL, when he leapfrogged Shah on the basis of nothing remotely substantial was sheer madness of the kind I thought we'd kissed goodbye to about 10 years ago.

The oneday side is another matter though. He has played two significant innings when nearly all around him were failing horribly, one of which won a game which we should have lost by a mile, and the other came closer to doing the same than anyone could reasonably expected. That's why he's still playing, even if his current form isn't pretty, and even if his running out of Cook was as stupid a piece of cricket as you could wish to see.
The thing is, those type of innings Bopara played, while superlative, are very, very atypical of the innings required in the one-day game. It's remarkable that Bopara has had the chance to play two of that nature in such a short time. When it comes to playing the innings more typically required, especially from a number-seven batsman, he's come-up short a fair few times, and there's no indication of that changing any time soon for mine. So I think his being selected at seven is stupid, and at three would be questionable.
As for his inital selection, we all know that you'd struggle to name an XI based on outstanding domestic List A form, so there's always going to be hunches. Bopara was certainly no worse a pick than the guys you've mentioned, and we could all add to that list fairly easily.
Maybe not, but there have always been, even if only to two or three, a list of players who should be in the ODI side ahead of said hunches. It gets a little tedious seeing hunch after hunch be preferred to the small amount of proven quality there is.
Admirable restraint on your part, btw, to the previous post. Given the cast of mediocre cricketers of all hues who have played for England's one day side , I shudder to think why anyone would want to bring race into this. 'Hideous' indeed.
Well safe to say Hingston was joking a little more than I was on the occasion when I was stupid enough to mention the matter... but I was sorely tempted to name the whole lot who've played the last 7 years, as I so often have done before.
 

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