Teams selecting umpires

[Engle]

Bucknor seems to be a decent chap and I wish him well....

However, he came up against a formidable foe...Father Time. Not Bradman, nor any athlete, ump, admin, capt, after-dinner speaker can overcome this.

He may have adjudicated perfectly honestly, but the perception (which can be just as powerful as reality) is that his decisions for some reason or the other are going against a certain team.

The 2 options are this :

1. Maintain the status quo...and run the risk of another Constant, Rana, Hair, Bucknor.

2. Do something different for now....and look for a longer term solution after the dust settles

 

[Tom Halsey]

And for whatever reason, the ICC would have been ok with that?

Well yes, you can't eradicate umpire error.

 

[silentstriker]

The outcome was, but assuming that it was nothing deliberate on Bucknor's part, it's just as likely to be unfair on the Aussies next match.

And that would be equally outrageous, and it would be twice as bad.

India (Ganguly) officially complained about Bucknor in 2003 Sydney when he refused a number of LBWs. Then John Wright again complained in 2003 in Lahore and made an appeal to the match referee about Bucknor. Then you had the incident with Parthiv Patel & Bucknor, and another with Rahul Dravid and Bucknor. And then you had this Test match. Does this really establish bias?

No. But India clearly believe they get the rough end of the stick more often than not with Bucknor, and couple that with his on-field behavior with India, and that perception, whether its grounded in reality or not, effects one of the two sides taking part in a match. The umpires are not above the game of cricket. If Australia believe Rauf is unfit, and show a history of official complaints against him, they should also have the same right to play the game without this hanging over them.

 

[silentstriker]

This is a match report from 2004:

Ajit Agarkar had got Justin Langer lbw twice, with balls that pitched on leg, straightened and were hitting middle stump. Both were plumb, but both were given not out by Steve Bucknor. Later, Damien Martyn was plumb to Murali Kartik, and again Bucknor, who had made that shocking decision against Sachin Tendulkar at Brisbane, adjudged it not out. His decisions threatened to affect the outcome of a tense, even series. And it is surely unjust that the final result could be determined not by the excellence of the cricket, but the ineptness of the umpiring.

And the Dravid Incident:

India have formally protested to Clive Lloyd after Steve Bucknor was caught mimicking Rahul Dravid on camera at the Sydney Cricket Ground on Thursday. The team are said to be furious about the fact that Bucknor greeted Dravid's arrival at the crease by rolling his fingers over the ball, a reference to the ball-tampering allegation that cost Dravid 50% of his match fee in Brisbane, while looking at him suggestively.

According to the team management, the innuendo was blatant. It enraged the Indians so much that they took the unprecedented step of reporting Bucknor to the ICC match referee. Shivlal Yadav, the team manager, told the Times of India that Lloyd had promised to look into the matter.

Bucknor's version of events was predictably different. "I always check the ball between overs," he said. "I feel both sides of the ball with my fingers to see if there's any hanky panky going. At times, I even sniff at it to find out if any foreign substance has been applied on it."

The incident merely highlighted the team's disenchantment with Bucknor, who hasn't distinguised himself with some poor decision-making over the course of the summer.

India already had problems, and this kind of pushed them over the edge. Whether fair or not, they don't believe he can be a good umpire for them. I don't see how you can play a sport if this is the case.

 

[Jamee999]

Steve Bucknor is no longer (and, tbh, I can't remember his prime) a good umpire. He's not a biased umpire, a bribed umpire, or a cheating umpire. He's just a poor umpire.

 

[Tom Halsey]

And that would be equally outrageous, and it would be twice as bad.

India (Ganguly) officially complained about Bucknor in 2003 Sydney when he refused a number of LBWs. Then John Wright again complained in 2003 in Lahore and made an appeal to the match referee about Bucknor. Then you had the incident with Parthiv Patel & Bucknor, and another with Rahul Dravid and Bucknor. And then you had this Test match. Does this really establish bias?

No. But India clearly believe they get the rough end of the stick more often than not with Bucknor, and couple that with his on-field behavior with India, and that perception, whether its grounded in reality or not, effects one of the two sides taking part in a match. The umpires are not above the game of cricket. If Australia believe Rauf is unfit, and show a history of official complaints against him, they should also have the same right to play the game without this hanging over them.

Absolutely every side has been shafted by Bucknor at some point though - I don't rate the guy as an umpire at all. I'm fairly certain you could find similar incidents with other sides. As Fuller said, if you're going to replace him because he's poor then fair enough, but given it's mid-series and wasn't scheduled to happen that clearly wasn't the reason and sets a dangerous precedent.

If he really is shafting India deliberately, then by all means ban him but there's absolutely no evidence and that's a big, big accusation. And until there is evidence, it's India's problem rather than Bucknor's.

 

[slugger]

sometimes i even sniff it (the ball), just incase i didnt pick up the wick when feeling it with my hands, id atleast smell the petrol..

 

[silentstriker]

If he really is shafting India deliberately, then by all means ban him but there's absolutely no evidence and that's a big, big accusation. And until there is evidence, it's India's problem rather than Bucknor's.

But that type of thing is literally impossible to prove unless he went around to someone and said, 'You know, I'm going to shaft X tomorrow.' What other evidence would you accept? Especially because an umpire can give good decisions most of the time and pick the crucial moments to crap out against one team, so that it wouldn't show up in an overall % against a country. If someone were really biased, that's the way they'd do it and it would be impossible for any objective method to identify it. That's actually another reason I'm all for removing as much power from the umpire as possible (but that's a separate issue).

I for one think he is simply a bad umpire, but the problem still remains - you cannot play a sport if the participants are not convinced the outcome is fair. And it's not like they have a history of it with Bucknor, with multiple decisions in the same match (e.g Ind-Aus in 2003, Lahore, etc).

 

[Tom Halsey]

I for one think he is simply a bad umpire, but the problem still remains - you cannot play a sport if the participants are not convinced the outcome is fair. And it's not like they have a history of it with Bucknor, with multiple decisions in the same match (e.g Ind-Aus in 2003, Lahore, etc).

I have a general problem with this principle. If you allow this, then after any Test with a few bad decisions, all sides are going to say they have a problem with umpire X, and demand he be changed. This is not sustainable, and given India are (almost) certainly wrong in this major assertion, it's completely illogical to rule in their favour IMO.

And yes, it is almost impossible to prove. That doesn't give you the right to go around making serious allegations without proof though.

 

[silentstriker]

I have a general problem with this principle. If you allow this, then after any Test with a few bad decisions, all sides are going to say they have a problem with umpire X, and demand he be changed.

But this doesn't really happen. Even when decisions go against them, very few formal complaints are made against an umpire, unless there are glaring errors or they happen on an ongoing basis. India have officially complained a minimum of three times against Bucknor (maybe more, not sure).

And yes, it is almost impossible to prove. That doesn't give you the right to go around making serious allegations without proof though.

So what do you do if you believe it?

 

[Tom Halsey]

But this doesn't really happen. Even when decisions go against them, very few formal complaints are made against an umpire, unless there are glaring errors or they happen on an ongoing basis. India have officially complained a minimum of three times against Bucknor (maybe more, not sure).

It didn't happen. After this precedent, I wouldn't be surprised if it started happening far more often.

 

[silentstriker]

It didn't happen. After this precedent, I wouldn't be surprised if it started happening far more often.

I would disagree with this, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see. It looks like (from Malcom Speed and media fervor) that there will be some sort of referral system implemented, which would pretty much solve this problem.

 

[Tom Halsey]

So what do you do if you believe it?

This is something I'm less sure on, tbh. I don't know the solution, but I do know that I disagree with India claiming Bucknor cheated them out of a Test match without evidence, as that questions his integrity, and is very likely completely unjustified.

I'm yet to encounter anyone apart from the India side who genuinely thinks Bucknor is biased, and we're (presumably) going on exactly the same information.

 

[silentstriker]

This is something I'm less sure on, tbh. I don't know the solution, but I do know that I disagree with India claiming Bucknor cheated them out of a Test match without evidence, as that questions his integrity, and is very likely completely unjustified.

I'm yet to encounter anyone apart from the India side who genuinely thinks Bucknor is biased, and we're (presumably) going on exactly the same information.

But as we said before, it would be impossible to prove such a charge to a neutral observer. We can only document what has happened with Bucknor and India in the past, and decide from that. As I said, it would be impossible for any type of 'beyond a reasonable evidence' proof to build up, with the game being adminstered the way it is. Unless he is stupid and tells someone, it would be impossible to prove in any sort of court - that's why it is so difficult and I wouldn't mind a system where both sides agreed on umpires before a series.

Or, introduce referrals (3 per team, don't lose it if you end up being right). Then I wouldn't care if Bucknor or anyone else stayed.

 

[Ikki]

Although I don't agree with the, I guess, pressured removal of Bucknor...I really think his days have been numbered for a while. Not sure what he has to do or not do to get put into retirement. Will it always go down to a team refusing to play?

 

[Tom Halsey]

But as we said before, it would be impossible to prove such a charge to a neutral observer. We can only document what has happened with Bucknor and India in the past, and decide from that. As I said, it would be impossible for any type of 'beyond a reasonable evidence' proof to build up, with the game being adminstered the way it is. Unless he is stupid and tells someone, it would be impossible to prove in any sort of court - that's why it is so difficult and I wouldn't mind a system where both sides agreed on umpires before a series.

I would prefer just leaving it as impossible to prove, than let poeple make an accusation like that without convincing evidence. Obviously I would prefer a better solution, but I don't think there is one.

As for allowing teams pick umpires - they're unlikely to agree and then who gets first choice? If it could be implemented properly then I would be cautiously in favour I think.

 

[Malleeboy]

The AFL (Aussie Football) has a system for umpiring that makes more sense and would leave me more satisified then the current ICC one.

Umpire's performance is reviewed after every game by an independent umpiring panel and if they make several shocking decisions they are given a spell back at the lower levels. Review process is automatic and hardly any one notices that it occurs.

However players and officials (including boards) are banned from making any public comment on umpires. Stiff penalties are in place and are enforced. Now matter how bad a job an umpire does or how much it costs a team every one keeps silent but they now that the situation will be independantly and failry judged.

The ICC adopts those rules and much of the public acrimony of the current situation could have been avoided.

 

[funnygirl]

Which is just a polite way of calling his impartiality into question.

Bucknor deserved better IMHO, even if he was only allowed the fig-leaf of standing down of his own accord.

In my opinion no trouble in questioning his ''impartaility ''.He is not the only umpire who denied or made mistakes against us.But he is a doubtful umpire we all think the saem .Past incidents were a testimony of that .And we reached in a saturation point of untolerable level .

Refusing to call for 3rd umpire ,i don't know how can be justified .

 

[Son Of Coco]

Tbh the British public are pretty stupid and easily influenced, wouldnt be at all surprised to see him become some sort of hate figure, english people always find some sort of scape goat to lay blame on whatever sporting misjustice that follows the previous one, anyone with any sense mind you wouldnt accuse him at all, however, stupid people are in greater numbers than those with common sense unfortunately.

It's not just England...this is one of the reasons I think a number of countries fall behind Australia in the rankings even though they have talent. Any excuse is clutched at when things go wrong, and it takes the focus off the real reason they're not going well - the player's performances.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The fact that you think it would it happen at all leaves you in la la land. The number of people who would seriously accuse Taufel of cheating is very small and those that do obviously doesn't follow cricket very closely, probably spend too much time reading books.

It's not very small, if you think it would be that leaves you in la la land.

God it's frightening.
I can see Taufel is a cheat T-Shirts being manufactured all around the world at this very moment.