***Official*** New Zealand in South Africa

[Matt52]

I did some digging and there are only 5 guys with First class averages in the 40s in NZ.( that have played a bit)

Peter Fulton 46.9
Matthew Sinclair 46.4
Greg Hay 45.6
Jesse Ryder 44.9
Stephen Fleming 43.7

Some other pretty dire but interesting points.. only one player from Northern districts averaged above 30......... 30!.. Nick Horsley with 36.5

Other openers around NZ first class cricket

Peter Ingram 25.2
James Marshall 28.4
BJ Watling (only young) 27.5
Matthew Bell 35
Richard Jones 33.5
Tim McIntosh 31.2
Shannan Stewart 33
Aaron Redmond 30 Recommended by his coach to open.

And our three illustrious black caps
Micheal Papps 33.1
Craig Cumming 33.7
Jamie How 32.8

I think these averages highlight the rather large pickle we are in. For comparison. Our opening bowlers Kyle Mills and james Franklin average 30.6 and 27.7 respectively.

Other first class averages of note

B McCullum 33.2
Scott Styris 30.8 ( although most of that time he was a bowling allrounder)
Jacob Oram 35
Ross Taylor 35.6
Lou Vincent 36.3

Non Black caps
Rob Nicol 38.5
Neil Broom 39.5

Theres a lot of statistics but I think on looking at that my opinion that its ok to use middle order players to open has firmed. Nicol and Broom are clearly better than any opening options we have. I
I think if a player averages say 45, he will find internationals tougher and probably average around 40, dropping by 5 runs, but if a player averages 30 in first class games, he will be found out much more and not just drop 5 runs but maybe 10 or 15.. I just cant see any genuine openers in NZ being any use at all, you may as well put in a good middle order player who is a really good fielder or something like Vincent,,,

 

[JBH001]

Seconded.

Thirded. Nice to see you around these precints again, Fiery.

 

[JBH001]

What I want to know is why Watson gets so much crap for breaking down constantly but with Bond it's always, 'so tragic'. Not critisicim of Bond from here at all, it is very sad that stuff keeps happening to him, but when the same thing happens to Watson, everyone goes psycho. Totally unfair for mine.

Um, because no-one gives a flying f*ck about Watto?

 

[Fiery]

Thirded. Nice to see you around these precints again, Fiery.

Thanks

 

[Fiery]

What I want to know is why Watson gets so much crap for breaking down constantly but with Bond it's always, 'so tragic'. Not critisicim of Bond from here at all, it is very sad that stuff keeps happening to him, but when the same thing happens to Watson, everyone goes psycho. Totally unfair for mine.

He has actually copped plenty of stick here on talk-back radio, etc, with callers labelling him "gutless", amongst other things

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I just pray that my predicted team in four years time will do better.

FYI it is:

Watling (not sure on his age though)
Redmond
Fulton
Ryder
Nicol
De Grandhomme
McCullum/Van Wyk
Vettori
Franklin
Southee
Bennet (Or maybe even Bond if he chooses to stay that long)

If we've finally got to the point where we're praying for a team like that, its time for us to give up on test cricket. Richard - please remove and future test matches involving NZ from your official stats because we're officially ****ed. Sigh.

That bowling attack will never take 20 wickets of decent batsman and the problem with openers certainly hasn't resolved itself with Watling and Redmond. Sadly, its got to the point where we're running out of options. Redmond is worth a try fairly soon, but Watling is **** and I cannot see him getting any better. There just better be some young opening batsman coming through soon as I see very little batting out there with the application to succeed as an opener. And I mean no one. I watch a lot of domestic cricket and (although not a batting expert by any stretch of the imagination) I'm disturbed about the lack of application from New Zealand batsmen. I cannot see a single untried NZ batsman who would have averaged over 30 in the 1980s and early 90s. Sad, but true. What makes it unbelievable is that we don't have any flat tracks for batting here in NZ at club level, HOW CAN SUCH TOUGH BATTING WICKETS NOT PRODUCE BATSMEN WITH THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO BAT?

Gah! Its so frustrating!

 

[Flem274*]

If we've finally got to the point where we're praying for a team like that, its time for us to give up on test cricket. Richard - please remove and future test matches involving NZ from your official stats because we're officially ****ed. Sigh.

That bowling attack will never take 20 wickets of decent batsman and the problem with openers certainly hasn't resolved itself with Watling and Redmond. Sadly, its got to the point where we're running out of options. Redmond is worth a try fairly soon, but Watling is **** and I cannot see him getting any better. There just better be some young opening batsman coming through soon as I see very little batting out there with the application to succeed as an opener. And I mean no one. I watch a lot of domestic cricket and (although not a batting expert by any stretch of the imagination) I'm disturbed about the lack of application from New Zealand batsmen. I cannot see a single untried NZ batsman who would have averaged over 30 in the 1980s and early 90s. Sad, but true. What makes it unbelievable is that we don't have any flat tracks for batting here in NZ at club level, HOW CAN SUCH TOUGH BATTING WICKETS NOT PRODUCE BATSMEN WITH THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO BAT?

Gah! Its so frustrating!

We're praying it will do better and as far as I can see, it won't find it that dificult.

I like the sound of a Southee, Bennet, Franklin, Vettori attack. Better than Martin, Mills, O'Brien, Oram, Vettori. Admittedly, I'd rather Bennet/Sherlock, Southee, Anderson, Franklin, Vettori but Sherlock is hardly likely to ever play international cricket because of injury and Anderson shouldn't play tests at 20. The reason i only had four bowlers was because I don't know of any test standard genuine alrounders bar Oram who will probably have broken down by then.

EDIT: Maybe our pitches are too green and the players get out too quickly? No, somehow I find this a weak excuse even by my optimistic standards. I fear you are right.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I'm not criticising your selections per se, just getting pretty worried about how bare the cupboard is looking...

 

[Flem274*]

I'm not criticising your selections per se, just getting pretty worried about how bare the cupboard is looking...

I'm optimistic. We can't get much worse. We've got plenty of good middle order players and if the bowlers don't die on us we can get a good attack.

 

[Somerset]

Haven't posted for a while (think last time was during the second warm-up match) so haven't commented on the first test yet - even though theres little to say besides it was diabolical from a NZ perspective.

The problem IMO, even though Kallis and Amla slaughtered the bowling in the second innings, is clearly the batting. In the three games so far (vs SA Inv XI, SA A, and SA) the side has been in the following positions batting:
6/126
145 all out
6/63
5/67
118 all out
6/109

So not a single total past the 200 point with the side six down, in six attempts.

Appalling, yet we'll most likely make no changes to the batting order, with Papps the only batsman not guaranted for the second test, though because of illness. Sinclair surely MUST play ASAP. He scored 240-odd for CD, ironically after numbers 1, 2 and 4 in the batting order scored ducks. Vincent in the side for me sooner rather than later as well.

 

[pasag]

He has actually copped plenty of stick here on talk-back radio, etc, with callers labelling him "gutless", amongst other things

No one is spared on NZ talkback from what I hear.

 

[Flem274*]

No one is spared on NZ talkback from what I hear.

Correct. Far too many useless idiots ring up pretending to know everything.

Ironically, I was listening to Radiosport today and crowe was talking about Sinclair and he raised some interesting points:

-Matthew Sinclair refuses help and guidance on his game. He thinks his way is best.

-His talent far exceeds most of his fellow test team mates but he does not rectify his weaknesses and therefore struggles against high quality bowling.

-He refuses to open. No matter what.

-Recently he has actualy gone into the nets and IS working on his technical weaknesses.

Sinclair, along with Fulton, Fleming and to a lesser extent Ryder, are the kings of FC cricket in this country and you know there is an issue when Fulton and Fleming are in the test side and their equal on talent and FC results is not. We all know the Ryder issue so I won't go into that.

Sinclair averages 46.4 with 50 FC fifties, 22 FC hundreds and 5 FC double hundreds.

 

[kiwipostereborn]

I think Styris and Oram are far too inconsistent for the Blackcaps. Orams bowling saves him, but Styris clearly suffers from a lack of playing long format cricket. He has the ability but not enough game time to be in form. He does well in ODI's because he plays so much of it. I think he simply needs to stay out in the middle and grind out a slow 20 before thinking about a big score. Get himself in. Oram needs to do similar.

Fleming is clearly our best batsman and managed to show it in the test. Hoping he puts his head down and scores a big one next test.

Tell me how Fleming has been more consistent than oram and styris.

Oram and styris are just as good. Fleming for all the batting praise he gets has that similar inconsistent pattern throughout his career which is why he has never become a world class batsman.

 

[Flem274*]

Tell me how Fleming has been more consistent than oram and styris.

Oram and styris are just as good. Fleming for all the batting praise he gets has that similar inconsistent pattern throughout his career which is why he has never become a world class batsman.

FFS you're becoming a never ending argument maker. We've had this bloody discussion. You lost. Oram's record got posted and its bloody inconsistent. Something like half his innings out for single figures. As for Styris every time he runs into a bouncy wicket he is ****ed. He is world class on slow low wickets though but that is it.

 

[Prince EWS]

Correct. Far too many useless idiots ring up pretending to know everything.

Ironically, I was listening to Radiosport today and crowe was talking about Sinclair and he raised some interesting points:

-Matthew Sinclair refuses help and guidance on his game. He thinks his way is best.

-His talent far exceeds most of his fellow test team mates but he does not rectify his weaknesses and therefore struggles against high quality bowling.

-He refuses to open. No matter what.

-Recently he has actualy gone into the nets and IS working on his technical weaknesses.

Sinclair, along with Fulton, Fleming and to a lesser extent Ryder, are the kings of FC cricket in this country and you know there is an issue when Fulton and Fleming are in the test side and their equal on talent and FC results is not. We all know the Ryder issue so I won't go into that.

Sinclair averages 46.4 with 50 FC fifties, 22 FC hundreds and 5 FC double hundreds.

Most of what is generally said about Sinclair is utter rubbish and/or speculation. He should be in the team. It's that simple. People try to figure out exactly why he isn't there and hence invent false explanations to calm their, but the fact of the matter is that Bracewell just doesn't like him or doesn't know what he's doing. Sinclair has definitely had his ups and downs, but no more than the next average NZ middle order plodder and he has far more ability and application than all of them, yet he gets dropped like a sack of potatoes at any opportunity.

He's not an opener; he should not have to open. I'm sure he'd open if he felt his spot in the middle order wasn't justified, but he sees it as an insult to his ability and rightly so. He should be somewhere between 3 and 5 - and middle order that should consist of Fleming, Fulton and Sinclair in whichever order. The openers can sort themselves out after that.

 

[Flem274*]

Most of what is generally said about Sinclair is utter rubbish and/or speculation. He should be in the team. It's that simple. People try to figure out exactly why he isn't there and hence invent false explanations to calm their, but the fact of the matter is that Bracewell just doesn't like him or doesn't know what he's doing. Sinclair has definitely had his ups and downs, but no more than the next average NZ middle order plodder and he has far more ability and application than all of them, yet he gets dropped like a sack of potatoes at any opportunity.

He's not an opener; he should not have to open. I'm sure he'd open if he felt his spot in the middle order wasn't justified, but he sees it as an insult to his ability and rightly so. He should be somewhere between 3 and 5 - and middle order that should consist of Fleming, Fulton and Sinclair in whichever order. The openers can sort themselves out after that.

I agree. Just saying what Crowe said. Though it would be nice if Sinclair took the friendly advice so we could have an even better Sinclair. Of course he'd just broken Crowe's recordd so he may have been bitter but i don't think Crowe would be that childish.

 

[Athlai]

Fleming fails less than half the time.
Oram and Styris fail more than half the time. Simple as that really.

 

[pup11]

Cheers fellas. Much appreciated

Welcome back mate its great to have you back, it would be a lot more fun with you around.

 

[Flem274*]

Fleming fails less than half the time.
Oram and Styris fail more than half the time. Simple as that really.

Don't worry. He might not be arguing that dead debate much longer. I'm not going to say any more. (HINT: In Off Topic)

 

[pup11]

TBH there is not much point in criticising the black caps IMO, their problem is plain and simple that hardly play any test cricket and due to that they tend to struggle whenever they play a few test now and then, the FC domestic structure in New Zealand doesn't seem to be strong enough to produce players who are ready for test cricket.
If New Zealand start playing test cricket on a more consistent basis that then would give the inexperienced batsmen and bowlers a chance to play in different conditions against better teams and players and that would certainly help them gain experience and evolve as better players.