***Official*** New Zealand in South Africa

[Perm]

Papps - I dont feel he deserves a place in the NZ side(rightly done by selectors). How > Papps

Franklin, Mason and Gillespie is a better selection IMO. Others selected would even get smashing even more than these. Franklin, even though he gives some runs, he can be handyful on the south african wickets. His batting also gives him an additional advantage. Given Oram being not in the form, he can fill his boots in the coming years.

Gillespie is a good bowler in the death. Mason is good in the south african conditions. I do not have any objections to the selection for this series. All the best Vettori

Papps is a far, far, far better batsman than Jamie How. He's performed better in both formats of the game during his career, and did a very good job in the few ODIs he has played. His technical deficiences againt the short ball won't be exposed as badly in this format, with the limitations on bouncers.

Franklin's batting does come in handy but he has shown very little development and improvement in his ODI bowling over the last few years and often leaks runs and bowls too many extras. How can you say Oram isn't in form? He hasn't had any cricket lately to assess what kind of form he is in.

Gillespie struggles at the death, he has shown that in numerous appearances in the past. Quite often he wrecks his figures for a game when his last two overs go for 15 runs each, which is a real shame because he hasn't really deserved that.

 

[Perm]

1. Jamie How
2. Lou Vincent
3. Ross Taylor
4. Scott Styris
5. Jacob Oram
6. Brendon McCullum+
7. Daniel Vettori*
8. James Franklin
9. Kyle Mills
10. Shane Bond
11. Jeetan Patel

Is the side I'd use, just quietly.

Lou Vincent
Jamie How
Ross Taylor
Scott Styris
Gareth Hopkins
Jacob Oram
Brendon McCullum (wk)
Daniel Vettori (wk)
Kyle Mills
Shane Bond
Jeetan Patel

Definitely a batsman short in our squad. There's no way we need five specialist bowlers, plus Fraklin and Vettori, especially given how Styris and Oram bowl quite capably.

 

[Perm]

This is the team I'd prefer. I love to see Hopkins in the side and see how he performs as so many articles are written about him as batsman.

No idea why TBH, he's crap.

 

[Perm]

IMO, that is the worst batting line-up in the world.

May be worst but equally effective with their strong hitting abilities.

Actually quite inclined to agree with the first comment. Styris is the only ODI class batsman, and while I think Taylor will develop into one he isn't currently and still very inexperienced. A frail opening pair, youthfully exuberant #3, Styris the rock, a rubbish wicket-keeper batsman at #5 and two players who average in the low 20's to round out our lower order.

EDIT: Excluding the likes of Bangladesh, Zimbabwe etc.

 

[Perm]

He is more of a ODI bowler than a test bowler and the main reason ofcourse is his injury

 

[Perm]

Phlegm, Athlai - Placing too much faith in young guys TBH. Houpapa, Hay and Harvie have barely cemented their places in their respective domestic teams and already you are considering them as international prospects. Ludicrous. Also, Phlegm, you're being awfully short-sighted. Your comments on Taylor, Oram and Franklin are pretty uninformed and reflect the fact that you seemingly can't look past the last few games.

New Zealand don't have an abundance of natural talent, and our batting especially looks frail. With the injury to Fulton, McMillan's retirement, Harris's departure to the ICL and Fleming's 'retirement' (forced upon him IMHO) we are looking like total rubbish. Styris is the only class batsman in our squad, and while Taylor has the potential he has been very up and down in his career to date. We've tried other options like James and Hamish Marshall, Daniel Vettori at #5, Brendon McCullum opening and we still haven't found good ODI batsman.

There are better options, but we aren't picking them.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Lovin' your work here Perm. Saying what any sane person is thinking.

I think I'd rather open with Jeets than How. Probably better at seeing off the new ball....

 

[Perm]

Lovin' your work here Perm. Saying what any sane person is thinking.

I think I'd rather open with Jeets than How. Probably better at seeing off the new ball....

Haha, cheers.

Don't get me wrong, How did show some potential a couple of seasons ago when he scored 3 centuries in a row, that was when he was given his first crack at ODI level. Showed promise in his debut innings, but has been unable to replicate that form. Should never have been near the Test team though, again there are better options.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Haha, cheers.

Don't get me wrong, How did show some potential a couple of seasons ago when he scored 3 centuries in a row, that was when he was given his first crack at ODI level. Showed promise in his debut innings, but has been unable to replicate that form. Should never have been near the Test team though, again there are better options.

Yes, but although there is more to form than the last couple of games, he's never shown anything at international level to suggest that he could average any more than 28-30 in either form of the game.

I guess my opinions probably sit between yours and Phlegm's. I certainly think there's a lot to be positive about when you look at our youth prospects, but I agree with you that none of them can really be considered ready for international cricket. Taylor's worth a go, but out of the other candidates, the only other player who can really be considered reasonably worth a dash is Jesse Ryder, and I personally wouldn't touch him with a barge pole until he starts to pay back some of the supporters that he's stuck two fingers up at.

Other than that, I can honestly only say that Graeme Aldridge can feel a little hard doneby to be ignored whilst Mason and Tuffey have gained repeat opportunities. We seem to be missing a generation of talent between the ages of 24 and 29, where there appears to be very little great talent.

 

[Flem274*]

Phlegm, Athlai - Placing too much faith in young guys TBH. Houpapa, Hay and Harvie have barely cemented their places in their respective domestic teams and already you are considering them as international prospects. Ludicrous. Also, Phlegm, you're being awfully short-sighted. Your comments on Taylor, Oram and Franklin are pretty uninformed and reflect the fact that you seemingly can't look past the last few games.

New Zealand don't have an abundance of natural talent, and our batting especially looks frail. With the injury to Fulton, McMillan's retirement, Harris's departure to the ICL and Fleming's 'retirement' (forced upon him IMHO) we are looking like total rubbish. Styris is the only class batsman in our squad, and while Taylor has the potential he has been very up and down in his career to date. We've tried other options like James and Hamish Marshall, Daniel Vettori at #5, Brendon McCullum opening and we still haven't found good ODI batsman.

There are better options, but we aren't picking them.

Uninformed? Lets go through them:

Taylor-You said yourself he isn't ready

Oram-People place too much emphasis on 20/20 being crap around here, Oram looked worrisome.

Franklin-You do have a point, however even if he reverts back to typical Franklin at least he's more likey to get wickets and score runs than Martin, Mason and Gillespie.

On the young guns, what others do we have? I don't want to watch Oram at five etc etc. Time to give a few call ups.

As for Broom, Houpapa etc I'm not saying select them now, I just think they will get NZ spots in a few years.

 

[Flem274*]

Yes, but although there is more to form than the last couple of games, he's never shown anything at international level to suggest that he could average any more than 28-30 in either form of the game.

I guess my opinions probably sit between yours and Phlegm's. I certainly think there's a lot to be positive about when you look at our youth prospects, but I agree with you that none of them can really be considered ready for international cricket. Taylor's worth a go, but out of the other candidates, the only other player who can really be considered reasonably worth a dash is Jesse Ryder, and I personally wouldn't touch him with a barge pole until he starts to pay back some of the supporters that he's stuck two fingers up at.

Other than that, I can honestly only say that Graeme Aldridge can feel a little hard doneby to be ignored whilst Mason and Tuffey have gained repeat opportunities. We seem to be missing a generation of talent between the ages of 24 and 29, where there appears to be very little great talent.

Good point. And, as has been said by everyone, we aren't helping ourselves with selections either. How isn't even the best opener in his state side IMO.

I think that if we get a new caoch we should keep Fleming, Styris (who's hopefully in for a while still) and possibly Sinclair around for a year or two and try to buy some time until the next generation are ready.

 

[Perm]

Yes, but although there is more to form than the last couple of games, he's never shown anything at international level to suggest that he could average any more than 28-30 in either form of the game.

I guess my opinions probably sit between yours and Phlegm's. I certainly think there's a lot to be positive about when you look at our youth prospects, but I agree with you that none of them can really be considered ready for international cricket. Taylor's worth a go, but out of the other candidates, the only other player who can really be considered reasonably worth a dash is Jesse Ryder, and I personally wouldn't touch him with a barge pole until he starts to pay back some of the supporters that he's stuck two fingers up at.

Other than that, I can honestly only say that Graeme Aldridge can feel a little hard doneby to be ignored whilst Mason and Tuffey have gained repeat opportunities. We seem to be missing a generation of talent between the ages of 24 and 29, where there appears to be very little great talent.

Let's be honest though, Vincent averages under 30 and has a poor strike rate. Coupled with the fact he regularly bashes minnows, and it's apparant he isn't very good either. Really there is a plethora of problems in our ODI team at the current point in time.

Taylor is worth more than a go, IMO, and has genuine potential to be a world-class ODI batsman. I can see him averaging over 35, which is pretty good by New Zealand standards. Very good average of over 40 in List A cricket, another rarity for our domestic players.

I really have no clue about Jesse Ryder, but he could do with a kick up the arse. Absolutely dire whenever he is playing for Wellington or Central Districts, but stunning whenever he gets to play for New Zealand A. Surely it can't all be just an attitude problem, and if it is I hope somebody in the senior ranks of NZC sort it out because we are missing out on a very talented batsman. Still wouldn't consider him for the ODI team until he starts performing domestically. There are some players like Neil Broom, Shannan Stewart, who have been scoring runs, but nobody really putting their hand up for selection.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Let's be honest though, Vincent averages under 30 and has a poor strike rate. Coupled with the fact he regularly bashes minnows, and it's apparant he isn't very good either. Really there is a plethora of problems in our ODI team at the current point in time.

Taylor is worth more than a go, IMO,

I really have no clue about Jesse Ryder, but he could do with a kick up the arse...... There are some players like Neil Broom, Shannan Stewart, who have been scoring runs, but nobody really putting their hand up for selection.

Vincent - a tough one. At least he shows an inclination to play the game as it should be played, but he has been messed around by the management a bit as the man to fill any hole that appears in the batting line up. Ideally, he wouldn't be needed, but at the moment he is.

Taylor. Yes, given the players available to us he should be in the team, but once again ideally he shouldn't be a first choice and he could be eased into the team in a similar way to how England have slowly integrated Bopara (though at five or six in the batting lineup). To my mind, NZC are already treating him as an integral part of the team, and he's shown a recurring ability to crack under pressure especially in the field. He's a top fielder too, which makes this doubly frustrating.

There are plenty of players in domestic cricket who could be worth a go. (Todd) Astle, Hiini, Nicol, Broom, Flynn, Redmond, Scott - **** it, we could even go back to Matty Bell, but there is one player who is out and out a more talented player than all of these guys and that is definately Jesse Ryder. I've seen a lot of this guy play, and he is the best Kiwi batsman I've seen in a long time. I just think he's gonna completely pass by like ships in the night, never getting a game as both he and Bracers are far too stubborn to actually deal with each other. His List A stats are very misleading too as far as I'm concerned; he's used too much by Wellington as an all-rounder - bowling 5 overs to a full quota and opening. I'd like to have a word in Anthony Stuart's shell-like and tell him to cut back on his OD burden. In fact, next time I see him, I may do just that.

Even more frustrating is injury problems. Richie Sherlock played for ACT Development Squad over the winter I understand and he picked up another injury after only a couple of not-too-bad overs. Never gonna make it at this rate, mate.

 

[Perm]

Uninformed? Lets go through them:

Taylor-You said yourself he isn't ready

Oram-People place too much emphasis on 20/20 being crap around here, Oram looked worrisome.

Franklin-You do have a point, however even if he reverts back to typical Franklin at least he's more likey to get wickets and score runs than Martin, Mason and Gillespie.

On the young guns, what others do we have? I don't want to watch Oram at five etc etc. Time to give a few call ups.

As for Broom, Houpapa etc I'm not saying select them now, I just think they will get NZ spots in a few years.

He isn't ready to be called an ODI class batsman at the moment, but certainly deserves his spot in the side. He's been one of our best batsman since becoming a regular fixture in the side, and it would be madness to drop him just because he isn't as good as he could be. There aren't any better options, and we need to have Taylor play as many ODIs as possible.

Oram faced ten overs of bowling in the entire Twenty20 World Cup. He scored at a very good strike rate and did his job down the order. Let's see him play some real cricket, then we'll see if he's in any sort of form or not. It's impossible to be in form or out of form if you aren't playing cricket.

So you're happy to stick with a mediocre player like Franklin? What about giving Bradley Scott a run? Nathan McCullum is another all-rounder who can do a very good job. If we're looking at specialist bowlers then there are better options in New Zealand than James Franklin, who is being ruined.

What others do we have? Well ATM we are stretched with retirements, and three of our best ODI batsman are no longer in the national frame. We've still got very able players like Michael Papps, Matthew Sinclair and Neil Broom without needing to pin our hopes on Hay and Houpapa, who haven't played twenty domestic games between them.

 

[Athlai]

No faith in the youth TBH Perm, just Jeeves. All the faith goes to Jeeves.

 

[Perm]

Vincent - a tough one. At least he shows an inclination to play the game as it should be played, but he has been messed around by the management a bit as the man to fill any hole that appears in the batting line up. Ideally, he wouldn't be needed, but at the moment he is.

Granted, his latest stint has been very good, but apart from that I've never rated him. Even when he has been in the side he's rarely been scoring runs, and when doing so is usually pretty damn slow.

Taylor. Yes, given the players available to us he should be in the team, but once again ideally he shouldn't be a first choice and he could be eased into the team in a similar way to how England have slowly integrated Bopara (though at five or six in the batting lineup). To my mind, NZC are already treating him as an integral part of the team, and he's shown a recurring ability to crack under pressure especially in the field. He's a top fielder too, which makes this doubly frustrating.

Kevin Pietersen anyone? Dropped seven in the 2005 Ashes I think, and is a very good fielder. One of the best pressure players I can think of in world cricket. The reason Bopara has been so low down in the order is because he can keep a cool head when the rest of his batsman are throwing away their wickets, and because England have other options in the top order who can't bat lower down. In a first choice XI, taking into account retirements, Taylor would be at #3. Can't see anybody who could take that spot of him.

There are plenty of players in domestic cricket who could be worth a go. (Todd) Astle, Hiini, Nicol, Broom, Flynn, Redmond, Scott - **** it, we could even go back to Matty Bell, but there is one player who is out and out a more talented player than all of these guys and that is definately Jesse Ryder. I've seen a lot of this guy play, and he is the best Kiwi batsman I've seen in a long time. I just think he's gonna completely pass by like ships in the night, never getting a game as both he and Bracers are far too stubborn to actually deal with each other. His List A stats are very misleading too as far as I'm concerned; he's used too much by Wellington as an all-rounder - bowling 5 overs to a full quota and opening. I'd like to have a word in Anthony Stuart's shell-like and tell him to cut back on his OD burden. In fact, next time I see him, I may do just that.

I've never seen him, but I know a few people who have and often have listened to radio reports. Not denying he isn't talented, but he doesn't appear to have the mental attitude and until he does, I wouldn't be prepared to pick him. You can't have loose cannons in your team, but I do agree that Ryder needs to cut back on bowling. Hopefully with Grant Elliot in the Wellington team he won't be called upon to bowl as much now.

Really wish I could see more domestic cricket. Kinda a downside about not going to Otago Uni next year.

 

[Perm]

No faith in the youth TBH Perm, just Jeeves. All the faith goes to Jeeves.

 

[Flem274*]

He isn't ready to be called an ODI class batsman at the moment, but certainly deserves his spot in the side. He's been one of our best batsman since becoming a regular fixture in the side, and it would be madness to drop him just because he isn't as good as he could be. There aren't any better options, and we need to have Taylor play as many ODIs as possible.

Oram faced ten overs of bowling in the entire Twenty20 World Cup. He scored at a very good strike rate and did his job down the order. Let's see him play some real cricket, then we'll see if he's in any sort of form or not. It's impossible to be in form or out of form if you aren't playing cricket.

So you're happy to stick with a mediocre player like Franklin? What about giving Bradley Scott a run? Nathan McCullum is another all-rounder who can do a very good job. If we're looking at specialist bowlers then there are better options in New Zealand than James Franklin, who is being ruined.

What others do we have? Well ATM we are stretched with retirements, and three of our best ODI batsman are no longer in the national frame. We've still got very able players like Michael Papps, Matthew Sinclair and Neil Broom without needing to pin our hopes on Hay and Houpapa, who haven't played twenty domestic games between them.

With regards to Scott I'm not sure, i think it was you who said he was a lesser version of Franklin? IIRC isn't N McCullum similar to Vettori in batting position? I'd rather both than martin or Mason though. Mason is reminding me of Hoggard for some reason and I'd almost be tempted to give him a test cap. Hell why not.

A bloke I've thought of is Keely Todd. No idea how much experience he's had or how good he really is but I saw him play reasonably for Otago and isn't he an allrounder? Could be useful.

Also, if we need to revert to a bit of a bits and pieces player then I'd suggest Diamanti.

As for Neil Broom I wouldn't mind if he was called up now. As much as I like Hopkins I'd rather have Broom at five and put Oram back at six.

Incidentally, does anyone know Ryders one day NZ A average?

 

[Flem274*]

Can't see anybody who could take that spot of him.

Peter Fulton

 

[Perm]

With regards to Scott I'm not sure, i think it was you who said he was a lesser version of Franklin? IIRC isn't N McCullum similar to Vettori in batting position? I'd rather both than martin or Mason though. Mason is reminding me of Hoggard for some reason and I'd almost be tempted to give him a test cap. Hell why not.

A bloke I've thought of is Keely Todd. No idea how much experience he's had or how good he really is but I saw him play reasonably for Otago and isn't he an allrounder? Could be useful.

Also, if we need to revert to a bit of a bits and pieces player then I'd suggest Diamanti.

As for Neil Broom I wouldn't mind if he was called up now. As much as I like Hopkins I'd rather have Broom at five and put Oram back at six.

Incidentally, does anyone know Ryders one day NZ A average?

In FC cricket that was my suggestion, but I think he's a better bowler than Franklin and offers more variety. Slower though, and not quite as effective with late hitting. McCullum is similar to Vettori, but a much better fielder and more destructive batsman. Doesn't take a lot of wickets but usually doesn't give up too many runs.

Mason has already played a Test.

How can you like Hopkins as an ODI batsman? Been dire in the past and isn't much better now. Gunning it in the longer format though.

Ryder averages 48.71 for New Zealand A, with two centuries and one fifty from 7 innings.