Who was the better bowler ?

[Richard]

Richard, statistically Imran is better ,no doubt abt that .But he did have the advantage of bowling in era of ''More tests less ODIs, no neutral umpires'' .Or wickets were more batsman friendly because of the ODI s in the 90's era .

I've not heard or seen anything, really, to suggest pitches changed a lot through the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. ODIs are ODIs, this is Tests. Neutral (or independent more accurately) Umpires I doubt changed anything much. Mostly it was not-outs, not outs, that caused consternation. In any case, it was generally only in Pakistan, not elsewhere. I refuse to accept that Imran's figures in Pakistan could have been improved by anything much at all because of home-only Umpires. He himself, after all, was in favour of independent Umpires.

Not only that ,I saw Wasim troubling the best like Viv ,Greenidge ,Haynes ,border ,Amarnath.......etc infact even before his prime has started , like as a beginner during 1986 -88.

And anyone who happened to be watching saw Imran troubling the best too. I don't really mind what I saw TBH, just what happened.

 

[Matt79]

But so could Imran...

Imran's stats are better, if only slightly. As most testimony I've heard doesn't really split them (and if it does it tends to come down on the Imran side) I find it strange the idea that Wasim was better TBH.

Don't really care. It's a matter of opinion, and I've given mine - which is that Wasim was just a little better than Imran.

 

[Richard]

CW's no fun if people don't argue over why an opinion's an opinion, though. It's unlikely that I'll sway you, but I can try.

 

[funnygirl]

And anyone who happened to be watching saw Imran troubling the best too. I don't really mind what I saw TBH, just what happened.

[/QUOTE]

Ofcourse Imran troubled the best of his generation with his vicious bouncers and indippers .I saw that .

 

[Matt79]

Too tired and disappointed about the AFL to want to have a long argument that's not going to sway either party.

 

[Goughy]

Just to point something out something I found interesting.

The ICC player rankings are a decent indicator if not foolproof.

These are the players with the top 10 bowling ratings

Date and value of Highest Career rating listed

1 S.F. Barnes ENG 932 932 v South Africa, 14/02/1914
2 G.A. Lohmann ENG 931 931 v South Africa, 02/03/1896
3 Imran Khan PAK 922 922 v India, 30/01/1983
4 M. Muralidaran SL 920 920 v Bangladesh, 11/07/2007
5 G.D. McGrath AUS 914 914 v England, 23/08/2001
6 G.A.R. Lock ENG 912 912 v New Zealand, 24/07/1958
6 C.E.L. Ambrose WI 912 912 v England, 25/03/1994
8 I.T. Botham ENG 911 911 v India, 15/02/1980
9 M.D. Marshall WI 910 910 v England, 30/06/1988
10 S.M. Pollock SA 909 909 v England, 25/11/1999

Hard to argue with any of those quality players and their achievements.

Some lower down are flash in the pan performers, but the list is a good indiction of historical cricketing achievement.

Wasims highest rating ranks 57th in the history of the game. That may shock some but that puts him in the same bracket as the Snows, Peter Pollocks and Bishops of the world. Thats certainly heady company but not close to the best ever.

In fact Wasim was never ranked # 1 in the world amongst amongst his peers at any point of his career.

Obviously, Wasim has longevity on his side and that gives him an advantage over a number on the list and he maintained good form for a long period, but at no point did he dominate like the top, top players do.

I watched a lot of Wasim and he was a very good bowler but always thought that his action an left-armedness added to a mythology that wasn't completely deserved. Never once did it cross my mind people could consider him one of the best alltime.

http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/bowling/all-time-ranking.php

 

[funnygirl]

That was a fantastic post combined with usual hatred for the guy
.Now tell me why almost all the batsmen from Border to Ponting ,Lara to Gayle ,Desilva ,Jyasurya, Azharuddin,Dravid .... the list is never ending rating him as the best bowler they ever faced .Why can't they go by statistics and ICC rankings .

 

[SJS]

That was a fantastic post combined with usual hatred for the guy
.Now tell me why almost all the batsmen from Border to Ponting ,Lara to Gayle ,Desilva ,Jyasurya, Azharuddin,Dravid .... the list is never ending rating him as the best bowler they ever faced .Why can't they go by statistics and ICC rankings .

Because none of them ever faced Imran

Try adding Gavaskar in that list and he did play Wasim too.

 

[funnygirl]

Really ,so Border ,Viv Richards,Dujon ,Gooch ,Mohinder Amarnath never faced Imran .Thanks for that information . Again What abt Srikanth ,i think still a nightmare for Imran .

Gavaskar did play well both Imran and Wasim apart form that 1983 series .Imran in India struggled against Gavaskar ,Amarnath and every indian batsmen and Wasim troubled them more than Imran.

 

[Goughy]

That was a fantastic post combined with usual hatred for the guy

Hatred? I couldnt give 2 flying ****s whether Wasim was the best ever or not. I have no hatred towards Wasim in the slightest, what I hate is the application of illogical reasoning to draw fraudulant conclusions and then playing the hate card when anyone brings common sence into the matter.

.Now tell me why almost all the batsmen from Border to Ponting ,Lara to Gayle ,Desilva ,Jyasurya, Azharuddin,Dravid .... the list is never ending rating him as the best bowler they ever faced .Why can't they go by statistics and ICC rankings .

Links and sources to substantiate the above claims please

 

[Richard]

Just to point something out something I found interesting.

The ICC player rankings are a decent indicator if not foolproof.

These are the players with the top 10 bowling ratings

Date and value of Highest Career rating listed



Hard to argue with any of those quality players and their achievements.

Some lower down are flash in the pan performers, but the list is a good indiction of historical cricketing achievement.

Wasims highest rating ranks 57th in the history of the game. That may shock some but that puts him in the same bracket as the Snows, Peter Pollocks and Bishops of the world. Thats certainly heady company but not close to the best ever.

In fact Wasim was never ranked # 1 in the world amongst amongst his peers at any point of his career.

Obviously, Wasim has longevity on his side and that gives him an advantage over a number on the list and he maintained good form for a long period, but at no point did he dominate like the top, top players do.

I watched a lot of Wasim and he was a very good bowler but always thought that his action an left-armedness added to a mythology that wasn't completely deserved. Never once did it cross my mind people could consider him one of the best alltime.

http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/bowling/all-time-ranking.php

What strikes me most about that TBH is Ian Bishop. ITE deservedly ranked with the Snows, but could IMO have easily been right up with the Marshalls and Ambroses. Such a sad story of injury wrecking a career.

 

[funnygirl]

Hatred? I couldnt give 2 flying ****s whether Wasim was the best ever or not. I have no hatred towards Wasim in the slightest, what I hate is the application of illogical reasoning to draw fraudulant conclusions and then playing the hate card when anyone brings common sence into the matter.



Links and sources to substantiate the above claims please

u hate the guy ,as u r a waqar younis fan .Being an English quite biased also . Well fans can be mad abt their heroes . I was talking abt the opinions of the ''men '' who actually played against him .

 

[Richard]

Hatred? I couldnt give 2 flying ****s whether Wasim was the best ever or not. I have no hatred towards Wasim in the slightest, what I hate is the application of illogical reasoning to draw fraudulant conclusions and then playing the hate card when anyone brings common sence into the matter.

Pre-bloody-cisely.

 

[Richard]

u hate the guy ,as u r a waqar younis fan .Being an English quite biased also . Well fans can be mad abt their heroes . I was talking abt the opinions of the ''men '' who actually played against him .

WTF?

 

[Matt79]

u hate the guy ,as u r a waqar younis fan .Being an English quite biased also . Well fans can be mad abt their heroes . I was talking abt the opinions of the ''men '' who actually played against him .

Kids - Don't Do Drugs!

 

[funnygirl]

WTF?

Yes ,i noticed that most English men can't stand the applause Wasim getting from the ''best batsmen '' of his era . They will ask what is so special abt him ?
i hate such generalisation ,but yet to meet an English who actually say wasim as great other than Gooch ,Stewart ,Lamb orFlintoff.

 

[SJS]

Really ,so Border ,Viv Richards,Dujon ,Gooch ,Mohinder Amarnath never faced Imran .Thanks for that information . Again What abt Srikanth ,i think still a nightmare for Imran .

Gavaskar did play well both Imran and Wasim apart form that 1983 series .Imran in India struggled against Gavaskar ,Amarnath and every indian batsmen and Wasim troubled them more than Imran.

Mohinder Amarnath is a close personal friend. He has always rated Imran as the best bowler he faced although he played Imran better than any other Indian batsmen.

And I was reponding to your post in which you had named only Border to Ponting ,Lara to Gayle ,Desilva ,Jyasurya, Azharuddin,Dravid which of them other than perhaps Border ever played Imran at his peak.

No point in shifting goal posts when someone presents an argument it only shows how flimsy the very basis of youe argument is.

Show me one place where gavaskar has claimed that Wasim was the greatest fast bowler he ever faced or Amarnath. By putting their names along with those of Ponting, Azharuddin, Lara etc you are just trying in vain to obfuscate the argument. It wont work with anyone who knows what he is talking about. However if you think by just going back and forth you are going to tire out those who find flaws in your logic, you may be right.

Stick to just one line that IN YOUR OPINION Wasim is a better bowler than Imran. Someone may or may not agree with you but they will respect the statementas you are completely entitled to your opinions.

But using fallacious arguments and throwing in big names to impress isnt going to cut much ice and just reduces your credibility, nothing more.

 

[Richard]

u hate the guy ,as u r a waqar younis fan .Being an English quite biased also . Well fans can be mad abt their heroes . I was talking abt the opinions of the ''men '' who actually played against him .

Yes ,i noticed that most English men can't stand the applause Wasim getting from the ''best batsmen '' of his era . They will ask what is so special abt him ?
i hate such generalisation ,but yet to meet an English who actually say wasim as great other than Gooch ,Stewart ,Lamb orFlintoff.

I think you've just destroyed any credibility you may have had on this forum.

 

[funnygirl]

SJS ,did Gavaskar,Amarnath played Wasim at his prime ? No.

Did they played Imran at his prime ? Yes

Did Border , Dujon played Imran at his prime ? Yes

Did they played wasim at his
prime ? Yes

So what they said Wasim as the best .

Now according to ur view almost all the bastmen who played Imran of the opinion that he is the best ,not so . There are people who think differently .

May be Gavaskar said abt Imran as he faced him at his prime . Amarnath ,i don't know however he struggled against Wasim(inexperienced) in that series more than against Imran .

 

[funnygirl]

I think you've just destroyed any credibility you may have had on this forum.

Okay then i am sorry for that harsh words . But i said from my experience so far ,thats what .