Australia A in Pakistan

[chaminda_00]

Ahh there you are.

Well most predicted that because the squad we sent over was essentially centred around the four-day game with a few one-day players thrown in. Cullen Bailey bowled more overs in this one-day series than he did in the entire 06/07 domestic one day season.

No, their top bowler from the OD series is playing in this match. And as you rightly said previously, losing a player to the main team is no excuse (remember Hilfenhaus??).

er - isn't this exactly the same for us, and a point you previously dismissed?

Australia’s problem was not weakness in depth, as I pointed out to you in this post which you ignored.

If i really wanted to i could point out the lack of matches and overs some of Pakistan bowlers have bowled through career. Most of the players have been picked on potential so they would have a similar experience in FC to Bailey. The difference is one player verus a couple.

There a difference between one player being called up and having over three over looked, one late call up. As well as the likes of Saqlain, Mashtaq and Azhar not consider. If Pakistan used the same selection as Australia in FC, performance over exposure then there would be completely different squad.

But at the end of day with these A series, you get a lot of up and down performances, due to experience of most players. So really one good performance can mean nothing unless they can back it up again. Pakistan did it 3 times in the OD series.

 

[hardnut]

If i really wanted to i could point out the lack of matches and overs some of Pakistan bowlers have bowled through career. Most of the players have been picked on potential so they would have a similar experience in FC to Bailey.

Seems you completely missed my point here. I was not bemoaning our lack of experience. I was saying that because of the limited size of our squad we picked several ‘four-day’ specialists to play in the one day matches. My chief example was Cullen Bailey, who doesn’t even get a game for his state in one-day cricket let alone Australia A.

But since you brought it up, 75% of the Pakistan A one-day squad had played more the ten times the number of list A games that Bailey had played.

There a difference between one player being called up and having over three over looked, one late call up. As well as the likes of Saqlain, Mashtaq and Azhar not consider. If Pakistan used the same selection as Australia in FC, performance over exposure then there would be completely different squad.

So the bottom line is, you have several players not available because of the T20 WC.
Who doesn’t?

So really one good performance can mean nothing unless they can back it up again. Pakistan did it 3 times in the OD series.

I have mentioned here why Pakistan won this series, but you just don't want to deal with it.

 

[chaminda_00]

I have mentioned here why Pakistan won this series, but you just don't want to deal with it.

Australia had two front line spinners in the squad and Cameron White, Hussey and Voges who are decent part timers and if the pitches were as effective for spin bowling as you think they would have been used more and more effective when used. Australia didn't have to play four seamers.

Yeah no doubt Australia selected more FC specialist, but really how many OD specialist warranted selection ahead of Bailey, Cullen, Rogers, Butterworth and MacGill. Cullen himself even though not always the first choice spinner at SA isn't much worse then OD specialist Simpson and Haurtiz. I doubt either would have done much better.

In terms of all rounder with MacDonald injuried, Symonds and Watson in South Africa and Hopes in the squad. Only Mosies was a realistic option. Personally I would have gone for im over Butterworth anyday of the week. But again i doubt he would have made a difference.

Rogers is a pretty average OD batsmen, but he only played one game i think and scored a 100. So well he probably added more to OD batting line up, then say Crosgrove (who probably couldn't be selected anyway) or George Bailey.

Really is not as if they were any other better OD options to select from and they really short changed the squad by going for a couple extra FC options. Pakistan were just the better side and it had little to do with too many seamers or too many FC specialist in the squad.

 

[Mister Wright]

How is his captaincy related to his batting though? When people asked why you thought he was over-rated, you conceded that he deserved to be on tour but not as captain. That statement suggests it is in fact his captaincy that you feel is over-rated, despite never seeing it.

No. You're completely wrong yet again. I said he is an over-rated batsman, and when asked why because I didn't think he is as good a batsman as made out to be and I gave the reasons like almost getting a test debut. I said fair enough that he was selected on this tour, but to be selected as captain is just ridiculous especially considering Cameron White is on the tour and he is a captain of a state side and Voges is not.

 

[Prince EWS]

No. You're completely wrong yet again. I said he is an over-rated batsman, and when asked why because I didn't think he is as good a batsman as made out to be and I gave the reasons like almost getting a test debut. I said fair enough that he was selected on this tour, but to be selected as captain is just ridiculous especially considering Cameron White is on the tour and he is a captain of a state side and Voges is not.

But again, I don't see what the captaincy has to do with your original statement that you think he's an over-rated batsman. You seem to just tack it on the end of everything despite it having no relevance to your actual point.

 

[chaminda_00]

It should be noted in regard to Voges captaincy credentials, that he has just been named as vice captain of the WA state side under North. He also was VC for most of last season as well. I would rate him as better option then David Hussey. White is a better option, when you just take in captaincy. But when you consider the likely nature of either getting a regular spot in the national side then you can kind of understand why he was choosen.

Has been a rapid rise which ever way you look at it though. Not as bad Nathan Adcock been named as South Australia captain. But i guess that says something about State cricket in Australia and lack of experienced players.

 

[Mister Wright]

But again, I don't see what the captaincy has to do with your original statement that you think he's an over-rated batsman. You seem to just tack it on the end of everything despite it having no relevance to your actual point.

It's the fact it just emphasises his over-ratedness. He's not this great batsman that he's made out to be, and it just astounds me that he is made captain ahead of someone like White who is a state captain.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Going back a few posts, Bollinger is generally just really inconsistent from game to game. When he's on, he's really highly rated by his peers. It's just that he doesn't bring it all together often enough.

 

[Prince EWS]

It's the fact it just emphasises his over-ratedness.

It doesn't though, unless you think he's an over-rated captain. Which would be hard given you know little of his captaincy skills.

You think he's an over-rated batsman - I get that. But unless he shouldn't be in the squad at all - which you've admitted he should be - him getting captaincy really doesn't say anything about his batting at all, so it doesn't emphasise his over-ratedness as a batsman.

 

[Mister Wright]

It doesn't though, unless you think he's an over-rated captain. Which would be hard given you know little of his captaincy skills.

You think he's an over-rated batsman - I get that. But unless he shouldn't be in the squad at all - which you've admitted he should be - him getting captaincy really doesn't say anything about his batting at all, so it doesn't emphasise his over-ratedness as a batsman.

Fair enough, you may be able to see it from both points of view. I think he's over-ratedness has given him the captaincy ahead of White, but maybe his captaincy ability is so great that he should get it ahead of White despite his lack of ability as a batsman.

 

[hardnut]

Australia had two front line spinners in the squad…

Really?? Who were these?

…Cameron White, Hussey and Voges who are decent part timers and if the pitches were as effective for spin bowling as you think they would have been used more and more effective when used. Australia didn't have to play four seamers.

Well how decent they are is pretty debatable, and you certainly wouldn’t want more than ten overs combined from these guys.

Yeah no doubt Australia selected more FC specialist, but really how many OD specialist warranted selection ahead of Bailey, Cullen, Rogers, Butterworth and MacGill. Cullen himself even though not always the first choice spinner at SA isn't much worse then OD specialist Simpson and Haurtiz. I doubt either would have done much better.

I’m not questioning Cullen’s selection. I’m saying if we could have had another couple of one-day spinners in the squad (Hauritz, Simpson, Doherty and Krejza all had better OD seasons than Cullen. Heal is another possible) who could have bowled in place of two of Noffke, Gillespie or Bollinger we would have had a much better chance of winning.

Pakistan were just the better side and it had little to do with too many seamers or too many FC specialist in the squad.

No denying Pakistan were the better side – and that’s because their bowling was spin heavy. Or didn’t you notice how poor the Pakistan seamers were apart from Sohail Tanvir? Maybe this is a sign of the lack of seam bowling depth in Pakistan at the moment.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Fair enough, you may be able to see it from both points of view. I think he's over-ratedness has given him the captaincy ahead of White, but maybe his captaincy ability is so great that he should get it ahead of White despite his lack of ability as a batsman.

I think he's been given captaincy of the A team because he's seen as a future international prospect with some captaincy ability. Obviously he's not seen as simply the best batsman in the squad, as someone like Jaques would be closer to the international team, but it makes sense that they'd consider an A tour a chance to look at a young, potential captain. White would have been the obvious choice, but Voges might be seen as closer to playing test cricket.

I've got no idea if he's actually a good captain or not, obviously.

 

[chaminda_00]

You do realise in two of matches Australia played two spinners and there was only one match where Pakistan played three spinners, the rest they did what Australia did and played two spinners. Its not as if Australia played one spinner in each game and Pakistan played three spinners.

When it comes to Pakistan seamers Shah bowled pretty well in Game One and then got taken to by Jaques and Hussey in Game 2, no real disgrace there. The pitch for Game 3 was a joke and not really a cricket pitch, more of highway. Everyone apart from Cullen, Gillespie and Amjad got smashed out of the park in that game.

EDIT: Responding at Hardnut post

 

[hardnut]

You do realise in two of matches Australia played two spinners and there was only one match where Pakistan played three spinners, the rest they did what Australia did and played two spinners. Its not as if Australia played one spinner in each game and Pakistan played three spinners.

And you do realise that one of those two spinners, as I have mentioned, cannot even get a game for his state side in one-day cricket? Yet you refer to him as a front line spinner! He should not have been playing, simple as that.

So we had one ‘proper’ OD spin bowler, Bailey, the three seamers and some part timers. Which is why we ended up bowling nearly half the amount of overs of spin than Pakistan did. A huge advantage on these spinning tracks, and does not reflect well on the selectors. Unless of course the selectors were only interested in the FC games, which seems a distinct possibility.

When it comes to Pakistan seamers Shah bowled pretty well in Game One and then got taken to by Jaques and Hussey in Game 2, no real disgrace there. The pitch for Game 3 was a joke and not really a cricket pitch, more of highway. Everyone apart from Cullen, Gillespie and Amjad got smashed out of the park in that game.

Well Tanvir was great, but I guess if you think Shah’s 15 overs 0/77 is good, then that’s up to you. Makes Bollinger’s figures look positively terriffic though.

But what about the rest of the Pakistan seamers? Oh right, you probably couldn’t find any because the rest of the Pakistan overs were bowled by spinners

 

[TT Boy]

Stuart MacGill was fined 50% of his match fee, after giving Mansoor Amjad a bit of verbal.

Michael Brown, Cricket Australia official - "It is disappointing that such a senior player would be charged ...
we believe a player with nearly 200 test wickets should be showing leadership to the emerging group of talented Australian cricketers currently playing in Pakistan"

 

[pup11]

Yeah... well MacGilla has always been know for his wild-temper and questions were also raised about his attitude just recently.
He is 36 now and he should behave in a much more mature and calmer manner.
Anyways do you guys think Cosgrove and Brit should have been in this squad.

 

[Mister Wright]

Yeah... well MacGilla has always been know for his wild-temper and questions were also raised about his attitude just recently.
He is 36 now and he should behave in a much more mature and calmer manner.
Anyways do you guys think Cosgrove and Brit should have been in this squad.

It's more an audition for the players who are going to be considered for next summer rather than a tour for players of the future. Anyway, I think Cosgrove was on the tour and got sent home for not keeping his room tidy. But, that could have been another squad.

 

[NUFAN]

Yeah I think Cosgrove was for another squad, a Cricket Academy one.

I like both Birt and Cosgrove, but both didn't have the best years and didn't really deserve their spots over any of the batsmen that got picked.

 

[chaminda_00]

And you do realise that one of those two spinners, as I have mentioned, cannot even get a game for his state side in one-day cricket? Yet you refer to him as a front line spinner! He should not have been playing, simple as that.

So we had one ‘proper’ OD spin bowler, Bailey, the three seamers and some part timers. Which is why we ended up bowling nearly half the amount of overs of spin than Pakistan did. A huge advantage on these spinning tracks, and does not reflect well on the selectors. Unless of course the selectors were only interested in the FC games, which seems a distinct possibility.

Well Tanvir was great, but I guess if you think Shah’s 15 overs 0/77 is good, then that’s up to you. Makes Bollinger’s figures look positively terriffic though.

But what about the rest of the Pakistan seamers? Oh right, you probably couldn’t find any because the rest of the Pakistan overs were bowled by spinners

First of all you are making some valid points, yeah an OD specialist might have made a difference. But at the end of the day it was a choice between a FC specialist or OD specialist. Simpson or Hauritz are both OD specialist and Heal and Bailey are basically FC specialist. When you conisder Brad Hogg has pretty much secured his spot as in ODI team and the Test spot is kind of open they were always goind to go with FC specialist. Such is the nature of these squads that teams are picked on the basic of who is the closest to national selection to nessarly on performance.

Yeah the Pakistan seamers where average to poor outside Tanvir and didn't bowl alot. But that also has to do with the fact their 6th bowler Umar had a half decent series. If White bowled better i doubt Australia's seamer would have bowled much. But i think you will find that Pakistan A's captain was told before to series to bowl the spinners more then the seamers. As there is more of need for a young spinner to make the ODI team, after Kaneria failure in ODIs. Pakistan seam attack is not great, but has more options then their spin attack. Even if the pitches where more seamer friendly i doubt the Pakistan seamers would have bowled alot.

But really the difference between the two sides in OD series wasn't the balance or quality of the bowling attacks. It was the fact that more of the Pakistan batsmen showed up. This reversed in the FC match, though, as none of the Pakistan batsmen showed up and most of the Australia batsmen did.

 

[pup11]

@ Cosgrove being send home for not keeping his room tidy!!
I mean c'mon what was that all about how can you just send a player home for not keeping his room tidy, i know Cosgrove is big unit so he might have been a bit lazy in cleaning up his room but you just don't send him home for that.