"Seriously, tho, you seem to be painting hbh in a pretty poor light there really. I don't have the time currently to respond on such a large scale as this, but TBH I disagree with the general tune. hbh is a good guy, I don't know how much of his posting you've read (I've always presumed you read more than you post) and while I was told-off for saying "he's a good guy, you shouldn't say a word against him" regarding someone else a little while ago that's certainly not what I mean. I think you've possibly got the wrong end of two or three sticks TBH."
You presume correctly.
I have no opinion of the guy as a person or poster. I've certainly noticed his name, but I couldn't pick out any particular post of his. I take exception with people who are obviously far too emotionally involved in a situation that they shouldn't be being condescending and dismissive, and I like to respond by being even more condescending and dismissive- something that, for better or worse, I tend to be pretty good at. Chuck in a little wit, and I think I make my point reasonably well.
Frannkly, the suggestion that there should be some sort of repercussion for a spectator that taunts the ability of an opposition player is laughable. I disagree with his opinion on this- no more, no less.
"A lot of people in England? A lot of people in Sri Lanka? How many series did he play after his drug ban? Sri Lanka? Don't think the crowd was that bad there and I am sure there was no concerted effort to shout out things at him while he was bowling... India? Check out the matches... There were absolutely no insults. Warney has been the darling of Indian crowds ever since 98... I KNOW this for sure.. Where else did he play after that? Against Pakistan in Sharjah? There were basically no crowds there anyway. England? Again, while it may have been concerted at times, it was not as heavy as it was with Murali. It was obvious from watching the matches. Warney was affected, no doubt about it, but he handled it differently. Doesn't mean Murali HAS to do the same and it doesn't mean it is the right way either."
I didn't say that the crowd did anything in regards to Warne. No, he didn't get as much guff from he crowds.
You asked when Warne had been called a cheat. I pointed out examples.
No, Murali doesn't have to deal with taunts as anyone else does. Getting upset at the crowds may not necessarily be the WRONG way to handle it, but I wouldn't think it would be the healthiest or most productive. His call, though- not mine.
"Ok.. So plz tell me where else has Warne been insulted in a concerted way apart from England. And when was it personal apart from the 2005 Ashes implicating his bowling, his action, his integrity and the very damn right of him to be a cricket player?"
Sigh. Now, from my last post, did you REALLY think I would respond well to this type of nonsense? "The very damn right of his to be a cricket player". So emotive. So heart-tingling. Such ridiculous, pointless hyperbole.
Jeering "no-ball" is not some heinous, inappropriate insult. If such a taunt really affects Murali as much as it does you, then he needs to get some perspective. As I said earlier, no one is universally loved, no matter what your achievements. When you are in the public eye, you are even more susceptible to varying opinions.
Deal with it.
"And when did I say it was easy to handle personal insults? I said it was easy to handle them once or twice but to handle it over ten years and see it cropping up again and again is not on."
I quoted exactly what you said, and I responded to it. I don't think I need to do it again.
"How would you bowl if I kept yelling NO BALL at your ears when you are trying to concentrate and bowl? Don't you think sportsmen deserve that little bit of space?"
Call me crazy, but I would think that someone who has made his living performing in front of thousands of people for a decade would have some handle on how to deal with a noisy crowd. Or should cricket be like tennis, where the crowd is expected to remain silent during play?
I'll say this again- the crowd has BOUGHT the right to react to the performers on the field. The performers SOLD that right to them.
"And about media invasion, you don't think Sachin's privacy has been intruded? The guy has cameras following him 24 hours a day.... Surely, Warne's thing is not greater than Sachin? And I can easily criticize Warne for not being such a clean guy like Sachin, but I won't... Simply because they are different guys and just because Sachin can check his behaviour doesn't mean Warne has to..."
Sure, Tendulkar gets it bad. Not quite as bad as Warne has, but he's up there. Fair point.
"Of course, you did... because you adore Warne (absolutely nothing wrong in that) and you thought I was insulting him and you were all over me. Imagine the same about some Murali fans in the crowd and the Aussie crowds go after him like that... We could end up with brawls everywhere.. Is that what you want? Can't you see why such people should be evicted? And the issue is not about Murali here... No player should have to put up with personal abuse that affects him..... The spectators are not the only HUMAN beings involved in cricket..."
I "adore" Warne no more and no less than I "adore" Murali. I am fascinated by what they do on the field, just as I was by Ambrose, and Lillee, and Richards, and Bishop, and Botham, and Gower, and a few dozen more I could name. I "adore" them in as much as they entertain the cricket-lover in me.
I certainly have no emotional attachment to them, nor do I take any offence to anyone else's opinions of them. Trust me, you can insult Warne as much as you want, and you won't get the slightest rise out of me.
I "went after you" because you were saying some pretty dopey things- not because of any misguided hero-worship.
"Really? Did u watch the match? I was in the crowd up over the pavilion and we were roaring every ball when he was running in with the record insight. And there was a roar as he got the wicket. There was not any silent applause of a player because he has broken the world record, there was a real genuine love of that player and the fact that he has broken the world record. Almost everyone in the crowd seemed to think "Ha.. What a great bowler and a great achievement. Such a great privilege to be here when it happened"... U think the same sort of thing will happen to Murali in Australia? I am sure people will applaud but will they appreciate it as much, given what a great record it is? Will there be the genuine affection or just standing up and clapping because he has broken the world record? That is why I had my doubts and I still do."
To answer your questions in order: Don't remember, yes, yes, yes, and I knew you'd have doubts. I even said so in my first post- pretty psychic of me, eh?
"Cheering and Booing is always fine. Personally (and racially) insulting the players is not on. Not when it is not an one off which can be ignored, but if it is carried on all over the country in a concerted way, with the only intention of maligning the person and taunting him and questioning his very place in the game on an issue which is emotive to him is just not on. No matter how much money they pay and how hard they have worked to earn it, it doesn't give them the right to emotionally keep hurting the sportsmen in that way. Hostile crowds and boos are always part of it, but some of the insults on Murali is worse than what you see heels get in the WWE!!!! Special treatment or sledging about their capabilities in the game is one thing. But when it has been proven that the guy is no different from other bowlers in terms of action, to keep shouting NO BALL when he is about to bowl and say that he is a CHUCKER, which means you are questioning his very right to play the game and branding him a CHEAT.... That is not on. As I said, just because you pay so many dollars to get into a cricket match doesn't mean you OWN these players. They are human beings too and they will have sensitive issues. I dunno about you, but if that Gilchrist sledge had continued, I would have asked action to be taken by the SA board if I were him. And same with Warney and England. If he is the sort of a guy who feeds off such stuff and bowls well, good for him. Doesn't mean Murali is in the wrong if he has a problem with it and decides to speak up. And as I said, it is upto the authorities to have stricter vigils on such issues. And don't tell me it can't be done, it is done every time a match is played in Chennai and behold the results!!!!"
I couldn't care less what happens in Chennai. If they do actually stop taunts, then they are being silly.
As for the rest, eh- I've said my piece. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth doesn't change the fact that the no-ball chant is far from being a grievous insult. They attack his race, then boot the idiots and hang 'em by the goolies. They attack an aspect of his performance, then they are well within bounds.
"That has been my point all along."
Good. If you had kept it to that, and not gone on with the "they should be kicked out and punished" rubbish, you would have saved me some typing.
"I don't think Warne is so distraught about some people taking some digs at his bowling but you were."
I was "distraught"? Either I am nowhere near as good at conveying tone as I thought I was, or you are projecting your own emotional investment onto me. As a writer, I would hope like hell it is the latter, or I need to find a new ambition...
(Just in case- I am a LONG way from distraught. Not even slightly annoyed.)
"And what makes you think that he wants to be universally liked,respected and admired. I think all he is asking for is to leave him alone when he is bowling instead of being continually taunted with an issue that is emotive to him."
If he takes exception to a few foreign supporters' negative opinion of his achievements (despite the fact that the vast majority of fans around the would admire his deeds), then I would suggest that he has a slight problem processing negative feedback. I'm no Freud, but I think my conclusion is within the bounds of possibility.
And a professional sportsman wanting people to "leave them alone" while they play needs a reality check. There is an argument for the notion that their private lives are their own, but what they do on the field is fair game for comment. This case is no exception.
"of course it is like that. I have seen guys like DAsa and Jason post here (and they are guys who are very very well respected here) that the chants and what happens around it are very much vitriolic and malice-intended.... Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it is not so. And of course, it hurts Murali emotionally, why else would he make such a big deal out of it?"
Nope- not from the VAST majority. People were interacting in a new way, and were having some fun. Maybe a very few were malicious, but no more. Jumping in on a joke and taking the piss is the Australian way. Just a cultural difference, I suppose.
And may I be the first to congratulate Dasa and Jason on the esteem to which they are apparently held. I'm not sure why it is relevant, but there ya go.
"And plz cut down on the advice. I have a few suggestions on what you could do for a living..."
I am open to any suggestions. At the moment, I get up at about 10pm, play a round of golf, clean the house, play some poker and indulge in a bad habit or two. The joys of a well-paid wife and some good investments.
If your suggestions involve me expending any more energy than my current lot, I think I'll pass, thanks all the same.
"...but I like to think that you are a good poster and this is not the way I like to argue issues here. Maybe you can try arguing the point than the person making them, for starters....."
Heh. Just so you all know, this was the EXACT reason I chose this thread to respond to. I can sniff out a hypocrite at twenty paces.
EVERY disparaging comment I made to you was a DIRECT response to a disparaging comment YOU made to someone else. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
You called someone stupid, I called you stupid. You told someone they were ridiculous, I told you that YOU were ridiculous. I dressed it up, added some humour and threw it back to you- and now you whine like you are trying to take the high road. Stones, house, throw- you put it together.
Just so you know, from the few dozen posts I have made here, I am quite sure that anyone can see that I am capable of debating points in a straight manner just as well as I can use levity and wit. I can also be a hell of a lot more insulting, by-the-by, but I play by the rules that are set.
"Not at all... They pay a few dollars to watch the cricket. Not to personally insult the players on issues which are dear to them. Otherwise, every other crowd would chant certain words which are even banned here in this forum and the whole game would denegenerate very quickly to hooliganism and stuff. Already there are instances of some rowdy groups getting in during games in Chennai with the sole intention of creating trouble and stealing stuff during the pandemonium. And it all starts this way only. Insult the players, some spectators come to argue with you, make it a big deal and then all hell breaks loose. And it is due to the wonderful policing and spectator control in chennai that we have always nipped these in the bud. And even leaving that aside, There is no reason why players have to put up with personal insults just because a few think it is fun and they have played a few dollars. Even in Australia, the Australian posters here have mentioned that it is only a minority who indulge in such stuff and surely they don't give a damn about the game, so why are they so precious that they should not be lost from the game? Cricket is for cricket lovers, pure and simple. There is nothing wrong in having fun but as I said, it ceases to be fun when it starts encroaching on another guy's emotions.
Not at all. Players are there to play cricket and spectators are there to watch and enjoy it. Not to sprout out nonsense involving the players' feelings just because they have paid a few dollars. It is the worst assumption to make that you can yell out all sorts of nonsense and that the players shouldn't react. Everyone is a stakeholder here and everyone is supposed to behave decently. Inzy going after a spectator was bad but the guy yelling out things which hurt Inzy over a loudspeaker when he is trying to concentrate on a game of cricket is worse. That incident should have never come to such a pass because the ground guys should have evicted this person the moment they realized that his actions were infuriating Inzy.
It doesn't matter how many times you say the same thing, "no ball" isn't crossing the line. It is not on the par of being unlawful- it isn't even to the point of being anti-social.
Didn't Inzy whack him for calling him a "potato"? That's worse than being smacked with a bat? Really?
"It is even stupider when the person can't realize that what I meant was that it is EASIER to be cool about personal insults in an one off than when it continues on and on and on over so many years and in all grounds in a certain country... I never EVER said that it is easier to deal with than what Murali goes through. And of course, people questioning the virtues of ur child and wife is worse than questioning a person's bowling action, but is it worse than racial abuse, which Murali HAS copped in Australia a number of times???? Questioning a person's whole descendancy and its rights???
You must seriously stop putting words into my mouth here, but then again, I reckon you care more abt your rants than facts..."
First and foremost- I don't rant. I also didn't put any words into your mouth- I DIRECTLY quoted you. I'm not rehashing the same stuff again. Others can read what I wrote and see if it matches up with what you said.
And for the umpteenth time- racial stuff is way over the line, and is rightly punished. No one should have to deal with that. No need to build strawmen.
"No ball" is not racial, nor does any connotation you can draw from it even approach the magnitude of racism, no matter how many times you get indignant about the taunt. It just isn't close, and isn't beyond the line.
You can think they are ignorant, but to suggest that they should be censured for it s pretty dopey.
"I don't agree with that and I think you will see that a lot of boards in the subcontinent won't agree with that either."
Then those boards are wrong.
"They already have, in Chennai. So who is deluded now?"
ZING!!! You really got me...
I have no reason to think you are lying, so I'll defer to you on that. They are still extraordinarily silly to do so.
Makes replying - especially when the quoted stuff is broken down into sections in the manner I'm so fond of - much easier.
) towards those doing so. If I were in a section of crowd which was yelling that at him again these days I'd probably say something, yes.
