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Cricket's most over rated players

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
But not everyone plays the same amount, nor does it make-up equal percentages of everyone's career. How many times?
No it doesn't, but no-one is playing their whole career against these teams either. There are other factors to take into account...but if a player performs consistently against the minnows over a prolonged period of time (as you'd expect them too) and this is weighted against how they go against the rest you generally have some idea. Having said that, some bowlers will be more suited to taking wickets against these teams than others on occasions, and you can bowl too well to get a lesser batsman out. Of course, if a batsman plays a game in Bangladesh against Bangladesh and gets 0, I don't think it's any reason to jump to the conclusion that he's hopeless, or vice versa if he gets 100.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Border whose main achievement was instilling belief in the Australian team rather than any highly memorable individual performances.
Instilling belief and confidence into a team that had been devastated for several years previously was a far greater acheivement than scoring a mountain of runs would be. Border's legacy is still lasting until this very day.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Of course, if a batsman plays a game in Bangladesh against Bangladesh and gets 0, I don't think it's any reason to jump to the conclusion that he's hopeless, or vice versa if he gets 100.
That's exactly right, and generally people exclude career games against Bangladesh when trying to build a case for or against them.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Your opinions and mine differ then. Atherton was talked up constantly and constantly failed to perform. His end career record fairly reflects the failure to live up to the hype and so called 'flawless technique' that he was supposed to have. To be fair to the English media, they didn't really have anyone else to write up that wasn't old (Gooch, Gatting, Gower), foreign (Lamb, Smith, Hick) or just plain crap (Lathwell, Morris, Morris, James etc. etc.)

He was overrated because he was constantly talked up but more often than not failed to perform.
That's not something I'm disputing. I don't read masses of media coverage, just a select few papers, but it's hard to miss the fact that they go OTT about good players sometimes. It's hard to be a decent English player and not be overrated.

The fact is, though, Atherton was NOT a lesser player after an injury, because what he in fact had was a heriditary condition (ankylosing spondylitis) which was with him virtually all his career, but flared-up and affected his play on just 3 occasions, against WI in 1991, in Zimbabwe in 1996\97, and in Australia in 1998\99. He should not have been playing on any of those occasions, and I tend to knock said games out of his career record when assessing him. Likewise his first 2 and last 10 Tests.

I'm not saying he had a flawless technique, but he was a damn fine player who succeeded against virtually all he was put up against, despite the fact that certain bowlers dismissed him quite a few times.

Presuming you're talking about Steve James, BTW, he wasn't crap and by the time of his 2 Tests the Atherton-mania had pretty well burnt-out anyway. He could perfectly conceivably had a decent Test career if enough opportunity had been available.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Instilling belief and confidence into a team that had been devastated for several years previously was a far greater acheivement than scoring a mountain of runs would be. Border's legacy is still lasting until this very day.
But the question is about players, thus surely about how they played rather than any top notch psychology they instilled in other players?

Tubbs was a better player and Border's game gets undeserved praise for the help he gave to other players, that's my point.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No it doesn't, but no-one is playing their whole career against these teams either. There are other factors to take into account...but if a player performs consistently against the minnows over a prolonged period of time (as you'd expect them too) and this is weighted against how they go against the rest you generally have some idea. Having said that, some bowlers will be more suited to taking wickets against these teams than others on occasions, and you can bowl too well to get a lesser batsman out. Of course, if a batsman plays a game in Bangladesh against Bangladesh and gets 0, I don't think it's any reason to jump to the conclusion that he's hopeless, or vice versa if he gets 100.
The last sentence of yours is that that makes most sense. Don't judge anything on success or failure. Completely ignore games - they should not get Test status.

If you insist on including Bangladesh games in Tests, you should also insist on including NSW or WA games, IMO.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
But the question is about players, thus surely about how they played rather than any top notch psychology they instilled in other players?

Tubbs was a better player and Border's game gets undeserved praise for the help he gave to other players, that's my point.
Border wasn't just a batsman though, he was a captain that led his team well and put Australia back on it's feet. He made the team what it is, not just through his batting, but through his strength of charcter. We are judging a player yes, and how he plays. However, the way he plays affects other players within his side, that was something Border was especially good at. I don't agree with Taylor>Border either.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Presuming you're talking about Steve James, BTW, he wasn't crap and by the time of his 2 Tests the Atherton-mania had pretty well burnt-out anyway. He could perfectly conceivably had a decent Test career if enough opportunity had been available.
Hmmm... I don't think I actually meant Steve James... Hang on and I'll look up who I meant... (EDIT: Tim Curtis I think)

But anyway... to summarise my view.

This thread is about who is overrated. Even great players can be overrated if they are considered all time greats when they were only 'greats', if that makes sense. Even considering that, I don't think Atherton was anywhere near as good as the commentators and media thought at the time. My opinion is mainly on the HYPE (i.e. how Atherton was rated at the time) versus how well he played.
 
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HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Border wasn't just a batsman though, he was a captain that led his team well and put Australia back on it's feet. He made the team what it is, not just through his batting, but through his strength of charcter. We are judging a player yes, and how he plays. However, the way he plays affects other players within his side, that was something Border was especially good at. I don't agree with Taylor>Border either.
Well, once again, nothing wrong with differing opinions. To my mind (and I watched a lot of Taylor and Border back in the day - you couldn't really miss 'em to be honest) and whilst I found myself avidly watching Taylor bat, I found Border more than a little turgid to watch. My opinion, just didn't think that what I was seeing was what those who rated him seemed to think of him.
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The last sentence of yours is that that makes most sense. Don't judge anything on success or failure. Completely ignore games - they should not get Test status.

If you insist on including Bangladesh games in Tests, you should also insist on including NSW or WA games, IMO.
And in the first sentence you should have added 'to me'.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
This thread is about who is overrated. Even great players can be overrated if they are considered all time greats when they were only 'greats', if that makes sense. Even considering that, I don't think Atherton was anywhere near as good as the commentators and media thought at the time. My opinion is mainly on the HYPE (i.e. how Atherton was rated at the time) versus how well he played.
I know, and as I've said, several times, that's the problem with these threads, it's so difficult to ascertain things like that. I think, however, that Atherton was a very, very, very fine opening batsman (might quite conceivably average 50 or more in the current era of woeful bowling - if Mark Richardson can, he certainly could) and calling him overrated or "worst to play 100 Tests" is an undue slight.

That's another reason I hate these threads. You can find a reason why just about anyone is overrated, really.
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well, once again, nothing wrong with differing opinions. To my mind (and I watched a lot of Taylor and Border back in the day - you couldn't really miss 'em to be honest) and whilst I found myself avidly watching Taylor bat, I found Border more than a little turgid to watch. My opinion, just didn't think that what I was seeing was what those who rated him seemed to think of him.
Nothing wrong with them at all, I must say though that since I have never seen either of them bat live my asessment probably isn't the greatest. All I have to go on is stats, match reports and a few videos. Border's deeds as a leader of a side that had no hope or belief at all really wins it for me.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That much is true. Even Gavin Hamilton was overrated... before he made his test debut for England....
... and now he's underrated, because so many people dismiss him as useless on the basis of that one Test, when he was a very, very promising all-rounder until 2001. Then, in 2002, the dreaded "yips" struck and he's never been much use to anyone since.

You see?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No need to patronise, Richard...

Its all about the prevailing winds in media really. To understand whether a player is over or under rated, you really have to know how 'rated' they are.

And try quantifying that.
That's exactly what I mean. It's virtually impossible to quantify how rated someone is. That's why I find the need to say mildly patronising things (wasn't directed at anyone in particular, certainly not you) towards threads like this.

This is nothing against Ben (Bahnz) BTW, but I do agree with np10 that he's been around for a bit now and could've realised how common a theme this is.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That would depend on us considering you expert enough to decide that yourself...and there's not enough supporting evidence.
I've decided it for myself, you can make your own mind up, but you said what you said, and as I say - I thought that was the best part of your attitude to the matter.
 

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