***Official*** India in England

[gunner]

I presume the pitches will be batsman friendly so it should be a feast from both sides. Especially given that Pakistan's bowling is quite inexperienced/unsuccessful after Asif.

you have seen pakistans bowling for this tour havent you?



anyway,
i hope they dont play shoaib vs scotland and just save him for the india match

 

[sohummisra]

Nah, that's the beauty of Chopra. He's not an idiot. He knows his role and he knows what he does best - and he does it. I'm sure he wouldn't get phased by it.

I actually think he would be phased by it. And there's not really a foolproof way to predict how he would react if he was partnered with someone similar to his style because he has spent all his international career opening with Sehwag.

The primary role of the openers is to see off the new ball. Once they've done that, then they can worry about runs. This applies even moreso in the Indian team where the middle order players are far more accomplished than the openers in the first place and hence would benefit greatly from a platform set of an old ball with change and/or tired bowlers operating - and even moreso again in English conditions where the new ball swings around.

Seeing the new ball off is important but you still need runs consistently. I think the momentum of the innings gets set by the openers and while its disrupted by an over-aggressive batsman at the start, I think it is negatively impacting to have two excessively defensive batsmen at the top. Chopra is pretty much in one mould. He doesn't go ahead and accelerate even after seeing the new ball, which explains his strike rate in the 30's.

As for your ideal opening partnership line, you can't really have one player in a partnership make sure wickets are in tact - he can't defend for the other player. Having one player making sure wickets are in tact will usuall see the other one get out. You can talk all you want about complementary opening partnerships, but the real fact of the matter is - the best opening batsmen see off the new ball consistently, while the not-so-good ones don't.

The idea of keeping wickets intact at one end is obviously not about making sure your partner doesn't get out. It's about giving one player the confidence to go after the bowling knowing the other end is safe. I think it's a matter of opinion and tradition what the best opening partnership should be--seeing the new ball off is one thing, but getting runs on the board is equally important, especially after the new ball has been seen off.

 

[sohummisra]

you have seen pakistans bowling for this tour havent you?



anyway,
i hope they dont play shoaib vs scotland and just save him for the india match

I don't need to see their bowling to know that they won't be able to pick a lineup that is experienced and successful. Same goes with India, which is why it should be a runfest.

 

[shortpitched713]

I don't need to see their bowling to know that they won't be able to pick a lineup that is experienced and successful. Same goes with India, which is why it should be a runfest.

Asif/Shoaib/Gul isn't good enough nowadays? Granted if Gul plays like he did in Sri Lanka then we might have problems, although we've got reliable backup in Rao Iftikhar.

 

[Prince EWS]

I actually think he would be phased by it.

Well you don't know Chopra very well then - and given the rest of your post is based on this (IMO) ridiculous assumption that goes against everything we know about said player, I won't bother with it.

It's about giving one player the confidence to go after the bowling

How is that a good thing though? It risks his primary function for glory. Dire.

And again I must ask - where the hell is SS when you need him? Poor form SS.

 

[sohummisra]

Asif/Shoaib/Gul isn't good enough nowadays? Granted if Gul plays like he did in Sri Lanka then we might have problems, although we've got reliable backup in Rao Iftikhar.

I never claimed they are not good enough, but that they are not experienced/successful at the international level. In fact, a lot depends on Asif firing. If Asif doesn't fire, I think Pakistan would be in trouble with regards to the pace department because Rana and Rao are hardly the best bowlers in the world. As for Shoaib, we won't know if he's going to play until we see him on the field.

 

[sohummisra]

Well you don't know Chopra very well then - and given the rest of your post is based on this (IMO) ridiculous assumption that goes against everything we know about said player, I won't bother with it.

And you have been visiting his personal psychologist? Chopra began gifting his wicket away because there was pressure to score once Sehwag started faltering. The same pressure will be back if he is partnered with someone with a similar style as him.

How is that a good thing though? It risks his primary function for glory. Dire.

And again I must ask - where the hell is SS when you need him? Poor form SS.

What? I think getting runs is equally important to seeing the new ball off. It's similar to when someone is batting opposite Dravid. Dravid's solidity allows the player at the end to relax since knows wickets will stay intact at the other end. This is not to mean that the player opposite Dravid will pull a Dhoni, but rather that he will be looking to score runs rather than defending. Having a batsman like Jaffer or Chopra at one end will allow the guy at the other end to look for runs, even if its just singles and twos, rather than defending every delivery away. Furthermore, once Jaffer and Chopra (especially the latter) settle in, they are not natural strokemakers either, so they cannot be relied on to push the run rate up. This is why I do not believe both will make a positive opening combination for India, and one that is looking to win matches rather than draw.

 

[Dasa]

And you have been visiting his personal psychologist? Chopra began gifting his wicket away because there was pressure to score once Sehwag started faltering. The same pressure will be back if he is partnered with someone with a similar style as him.

Chopra was never 'gifting his wicket away', firstly he was undone by good bowling and secondly, I'm sure his form was affected by the question marks surrounding his presence in the team ahead of Yuvraj (when it was made clear that Ganguly preferred Yuvraj ahead of Chopra). I can't remember a single time Chopra gave his wicket away actually, and I've seen pretty much every ball of his Test career. Anyway, Sehwag had a lot of success when batting with Chopra - his form problems began long after Chopra was gone from the team.

 

[gunner]

I never claimed they are not good enough, but that they are not experienced/successful at the international level. In fact, a lot depends on Asif firing. If Asif doesn't fire, I think Pakistan would be in trouble with regards to the pace department because Rana and Rao are hardly the best bowlers in the world. As for Shoaib, we won't know if he's going to play until we see him on the field.

you're missing out afridi,razzaq and malik there

with a full strength odi team pakistan have the best bowling at their disposal in the world and the most complete odi team.

dunno where you get the fact that shoaib,asif and gul arent expereinced.
asif yes but shoaib and gul have been around for a number of years and razzaq and afridi bowl too

 

[sohummisra]

you're missing out afridi,razzaq and malik there

with a full strength odi team pakistan have the best bowling at their disposal in the world and the most complete odi team.

dunno where you get the fact that shoaib,asif and gul arent expereinced.
asif yes but shoaib and gul have been around for a number of years and razzaq and afridi bowl too

I may not have made it clear but I did mean to point at the pace attack. Shoaib has been around for a number of years but as I said earlier, he cannot be relied upon as a starter even if he's named in the squad. He's been lethal at times and tame at other times. In fact, Shoaib is the only frontline pacer who has both experience and success at international level. Asif's "comeback" will go a long way in determining his future. Gul hasn't struck me as anything particularly special. He is effective when he is getting help from the pitch and has had a couple of great matches but also a lot of mediocre ones.

As for the others, Razzaq is a shade of the bowler he was in the past but no doubt a good second change. Afridi and Malik will share the burden of the spinner, which I presume will be good enough for this tour, but I'm not sure about the future.

As for the comment about having the best bowling in the world at full-strength, I think a few teams could vie for that honor with full-strength teams, themselves. India are obviously not one that comes to mind, but South Africa and Sri Lanka have very dangerous line-ups. Australia is obviously rebuilding but I think they will be able to fill the void left by McGrath and will have one of the stronger pace bowling attacks with Tait, Lee and Clark, and many fringe players that look ready for international cricket.

 

[sohummisra]

Chopra was never 'gifting his wicket away', firstly he was undone by good bowling and secondly, I'm sure his form was affected by the question marks surrounding his presence in the team ahead of Yuvraj (when it was made clear that Ganguly preferred Yuvraj ahead of Chopra). I can't remember a single time Chopra gave his wicket away actually, and I've seen pretty much every ball of his Test career. Anyway, Sehwag had a lot of success when batting with Chopra - his form problems began long after Chopra was gone from the team.

I'm actually not sure what this discussion has transpired into and what views are being debated against what. I have myself followed Chopra's short career live on television although I must say that I did not reserve any special memory in my brain for what seemed like a promising opener. Here are my thoughts:

1. I do not think Jaffer and Chopra would make a potent/positive opening line-up for India.
2. I think it is important to strike a balance with the opening line-up so that runs come as well as a strong protection of wickets.

To other ends, I believe Chopra was a good counterfoil to Sehwag, but that he would not succeed with someone like Jaffer. I do not think they would complement each other at all and I in fact think they would have a negative effect on each other. I have no evidence of this happening, but neither do those who disagree with me.

Secondly, I think the traditional method of seeing off the new ball being the job of the openers is important, but that there are some changes to this theory that must adapt with the modern game. The openers set the tone for the innings and having runs under the belt can be as promising as coming in to face an old ball.

 

[Sanz]

I'm actually not sure what this discussion has transpired into and what views are being debated against what. I have myself followed Chopra's short career live on television although I must say that I did not reserve any special memory in my brain for what seemed like a promising opener. Here are my thoughts:

1. I do not think Jaffer and Chopra would make a potent/positive opening line-up for India.
2. I think it is important to strike a balance with the opening line-up so that runs come as well as a strong protection of wickets.

To other ends, I believe Chopra was a good counterfoil to Sehwag, but that he would not succeed with someone like Jaffer. I do not think they would complement each other at all and I in fact think they would have a negative effect on each other. I have no evidence of this happening, but neither do those who disagree with me.

Secondly, I think the traditional method of seeing off the new ball being the job of the openers is important, but that there are some changes to this theory that must adapt with the modern game. The openers set the tone for the innings and having runs under the belt can be as promising as coming in to face an old ball.

Sounds like you wanting to have the last word at any cost. You claimed that Chopra was gifting his wicket away, when it came time to back that up, you come up with above.

And Chopra's playing style is same as Jaffer's or Gambhir's ? Have you actually watched anyone of the three play ?

 

[gunner]

As for the comment about having the best bowling in the world at full-strength, I think a few teams could vie for that honor with full-strength teams, themselves. India are obviously not one that comes to mind, but South Africa and Sri Lanka have very dangerous line-ups. Australia is obviously rebuilding but I think they will be able to fill the void left by McGrath and will have one of the stronger pace bowling attacks with Tait, Lee and Clark, and many fringe players that look ready for international cricket.

How many other teams can match pakistan in the bowling department in odi matches at full strength squad?
Fully fit i think this would be the ODI squads bowling attack

Shoaib
Asif
Gul
Rana
Shabbir
Sami

i admit seeing this lot in 1 squad would be very rare if not impossible but i really hope pakistan get it right and get them all fully fit,
also we should deploy a rotation policy with the bowlers cos we have enough good pace bowlers to replace the other one and be just as effective

Shoaib-Sami
Asif- Shabbir
Gul-Rana

 

[Manee]

Sorry but...

Shoaib - Past it at 31 years old and would have lost a lot of pace which is his main weapon.
Asif - Averages 34 in List A and ODI cricket and not too economical at over 4.5 an over.
Gul - I rate him highly and I think he could be quite special.
Rana - Too expensive
Shabbir - Average of 36 in ODIs and always questions over his action may hinder a career.
Sami - Good bowler in ODIs but concedes almost 5 runs per over.

 

[gunner]

Sorry but...

Shoaib - Past it at 31 years old and would have lost a lot of pace which is his main weapon.
Asif - Averages 34 in List A and ODI cricket and not too economical at over 4.5 an over.
Gul - I rate him highly and I think he could be quite special.
Rana - Too expensive
Shabbir - Average of 36 in ODIs and always questions over his action may hinder a career.
Sami - Good bowler in ODIs but concedes almost 5 runs per over.

rana was one of the best bowlers in 2005 actually,
his injury in 2006 in england had some weird affect on him and from that he went downhill.
still can come back though and we missed him greatly in the death overs since he departed.

Asif normally does all his overs before the death overs and only a stupid captain would play him in the death overs now.

Shabbir is a good odi bowler too and can get bounce on pitches on which other bowlers cant cos of his height.
He's like a mixture of mcgrath and pollock, mcgraths height and pollocks line and length.

Gul still hasnt found his groove after that injury in 2004 and im sure he will bowl the way he used to.

Shoaib- i have nothing to say cos we all saw how he bowled vs SA.
i knowhe got injured but like i say, this debate is about when fully fit and not many bowlers can claim to have troubled jaques kallis liek shoaib has over the years.

sami- Loks to be on his way to recovering some of his pace pre 2004 with malik allowing him to use is old full run up and pace

 

[gunner]

anyway bac to topic
what do people think will be the teams?
i dont know much about india but i know forsure as does everone who follows pakistan cricket this will be the team

Butt
Nazir
Younis/Malik
Yousuf
Younis/Malik
Afridi
Razzaq
Akmal
Shoaib
Asif
Gul

 

[TT Boy]

anyway bac to topic
what do people think will be the teams?
i dont know much about india but i know forsure as does everone who follows pakistan cricket this will be the team

Butt
Nazir
Younis/Malik
Yousuf
Younis/Malik
Afridi
Razzaq
Akmal
Shoaib
Asif
Gul

I'm not keen on Butt yet given the 15, that is the side I would probably select also. Only contention being Gul for Anjum.

 

[gunner]

well butt is a gaurantee until 31st dec now that he is vice captain

plus i would never leave him out of any team against india

 

[sohummisra]

Sounds like you wanting to have the last word at any cost. You claimed that Chopra was gifting his wicket away, when it came time to back that up, you come up with above.

Well I cannot honestly claim that I remember Chopra giving it away, but I don't think whoever mentioned that they have not seen him give it away can either. It's easy to put a blanket statement and say "Chopra was undone by good balls" but very difficult to back that up as well. Memory fades, and I have other things to remember than how Chopra got out in the 15-odd innings that he played.

And it's ironic that you claim I want to have the last word at any cost when you enter the discussion at the fading moments to get a few insults in.

And Chopra's playing style is same as Jaffer's or Gambhir's ? Have you actually watched anyone of the three play ?

Indeed I have. I don't know where you got Gambhir's name from, by the way, because I put him in a different group from Chopra and Jaffer. And by style, I mean that they are built in the same mould: defensive. It's the same mould that Dravid comes from. It's a different mould from what Sachin, Sehwag and Ganguly came from, although the former and the latter seem to have changed, now.

 

[sohummisra]

anyway bac to topic
what do people think will be the teams?
i dont know much about india but i know forsure as does everone who follows pakistan cricket this will be the team

I would predict the following XI for India:

1. Gambhir
2. Ganguly
3. Yuvraj
4. Tendulkar
5. Dravid
6. Karthik
7. Dhoni
8. Powar
9. Agarkar
10. Zaheer
11. Sreesanth

I would like to see Chawla and Sharma against Pakistan but I think they will use them for the South Africa ODI's and prefer this 'safer' option.