Ireland and scotland to be kicked out by ecb

[LA ICE-E]

Reading this thread I have realised how silly some people are. One, India had no reason to stay in the British Empire and Scotland and Ireland are not real countries. Sadly it is not well known that out of all the countries in the British Empire, Ireland wanted indpendance the most and were only part of Britain coz all the parliment was bribed and were all evenglical, scot and english desent while the native irish were catholic and were banned from parliment. it took 800 years for Ireland to achive independance, when it was split up into NI in UK and Ireland Seperate, also Ireland is not in the commonwealth which india are. and its insulting for someone to ingore this and now Scotland want independance. Also Scotland withdrew from the ECB in the early 90's and became a seprate cricket side. All contries in the British Isles have seprate teams in Rugby, soccer and everything else, in atletics and golf they play as Great Britian, which exculdes ROI. Ireland play together NI and ROI in rugby and cricket, but are sepreate in every other sport, wher NI are either seprate or with GB. Also why a Brtish Isles team. Realisticly do you think Scotland and ireland are going to produce quailty test crickets reguarly. Plus I think Scots and Irish should never play for england or any other team you are irish, joyce not english, it means nothing playing for england. So I hope i have show Scotland and Ireland are real countries and anyway the english wouldnt want a british isles team i assure u.

ECB only want to kick them out coz its an excuse to git rid of two teams which will let them shorten comp. Might dilute money are IRELAND and Scotland goin gto be a test playing nation soon, no so not many games will be on tv. ECB are greedy also.

aND ALSO iRISH GOVERNMENT DOES NOT LIKE THE TERM BRITISH ISLES AND EITHER DO I.

Neither does most of the people in Ireland. But one correction is Scotland's a separate nation but not a country but I know what you mean.

 

[Dasa]

It's extremely unlikely that there will ever be sufficient interest in Ireland to produce a separate team of international standard, anyway. It'd be great if the game got bigger there, but the maximum I think it has potential to do is become another notable part of The British Isles where the game is played, not to become an extra international force.

OK. That's an acceptable argument, although I disagree with it.

 

[roseboy64]

It's just hypothetical though really. Does he have concrete evidence to prove that the associate nations will never be of worth? IMO it's better to at least try to expand the game than just letting it remain 'elite'.

 

[marc71178]

Anyone who was any cop in any one of the home countries played (and still wants to play) for England. See Ed Joyce, Gavin Hamilton, Niall O'Brien.

However, the conjecture is that if the option to play Test Cricket for their own nation were there, they'd take it.

Not an issue for the current generation, but in 20-30 years (or possibly even less) - we could know the answer.

 

[marc71178]

There is no good reason to change this particular thing, other than to create the illusion of expansion.

But yet again you haven't given any good reason not to expand, all you've done is say "it's always been this way" then mumble on about Yorkshire as if that's at all relevant.

 

[Richard]

Splitting-up an established team isn't expansion, it's just creating the illusion of it. Real expansion would be getting places like Afghanistan into the fold.

 

[Richard]

Exactly, that what richard doesn't get Ireland and Scotland seperated because they wanted to not because of any thing relating to expansion.

They would not have separated had they had teams in the County Championship. Nor if the team had been accurately named for the last 104 years. Nor would they have become separate had I$C$C not had the obsession with expansion. Had any or all of those been the case in 1997, the Board formed would have been the British and Irish Cricket Board or something along those lines. I've repeatedly ignored you saying "they wanted to separate" which is what has given you the mistaken impression that I "don't get it", because it's not remotely important to me.

 

[Richard]

There is no illusion of expansion. Playing numbers in the associates have doubled in the last 12 months and have tripled in affiliate nations. These are home grown players who are learning to love and play the game on a regular basis. Given a fair opportunity rather than being kept down by such shortsighted organisations as the ECB, there are several countries out there who, in time, could develop into teams that can and will beat some of the current Test sides.

Exactly - there are several who could. But they could just as easily not.

The progress in places like Canada and Namibia is not yet a convincing matter.

Aside from the dog-in-the-manger displayed in this case by the ECB, they are failing to grasp a potentially lucrative long term future. If Scotland and Ireland were allowed and encouraged to improve (and this would include not pinching their best players on the off chance they will make the Test side) a very healthy rivalry could develop between the three that could bring in plenty of dollars. As with most current cricket administrations however, misplaced and short sighted greed is going to get in the way.

The short-sightedness is far more from the Scottish and Irish Cricket Unions than The ECB.

 

[Richard]

If 100 year old tradition wasn't enough to do what you say they did, a name wouldn't either.

Err, of course it would. It'd require changing the name of the team, something that would never be remotely likely.

Had the team been accurately named, none of this nonsense could ever have happened.

really last time I check you said neither Scotland nor Ireland were odi/test class. Expansion doesn't mean you have to have teams playing ODI's and Tests, expansion is you getting more and more people into the game that wasn't into it before, and looking at the teams in division 3 it's going well.

The ultimate goal, though, is playing Tests and ODIs. Scottish and Irish players have had the opportunity to do so - very easily - for a century and more.

 

[Dasa]

I've repeatedly ignored you saying "they wanted to separate" which is what has given you the mistaken impression that I "don't get it", because it's not remotely important to me.

So what they want is completely irrelevant? Are you serious?

 

[Richard]

The point is that there are many circumstances under which they'd not have wanted it. My arguments have always been coming from the angle of if those had been the case.

 

[JKL]

A few thoughts for my first post on the forum...


1. England & Wales are the countries represented by the team called 'England' - infact touring teams from this country sent overseas were called MCC until the 1980's and not 'England'

2. Ireland & Scotland are seperate cricketing members than the ECB, although cricketers from Scotland are allowed to play for England because of the British link, similarly with an Ulsterman. Cricketers born in ROI must qualify like Ed Joyce

3. The ECB are quite within their rights to dump Scotland & Ireland from its competitions. Those boards have chosen short term gain (which is their right) rather than long term stability. Why should the ECB continue to support these members if they are willing to hinder the ECB financially.

4. For Wales to gain its own ICC member status, Glamorgan would have to be removed from the county championship and replaced with an English county. It could no longer recieve funding from the ECB. The Ashes test would also be moved from cardiff.
Wales could not select any player of British nationality if it suited them, unless they chose to reside in Wales and qualified for 4 years.
It's never going to happen - the current arrangement is the only way Wales will stage test cricket - it's not like Wales are just an afterthought anyhow - most of the top bods at the ECB are Welshmen, including the top bod - David Morgan

5. Of course an Irishman are only playing for England because thats the only way they can play test cricket - which is why IMO Ed Joyce should probably be nowhere near the team.

(point 4 is more to do with the Welsh thread further down the forum)

 

[Richard]

The central point I've always been making is that 12 years ago you could have said what you said about Wales about every country in The British Isles.

Only since 1997 and the inception of The ECB and the other 2 has there been a definition that England and Wales are one thing, Scotland is another and Ireland is another. The only reason, too, that Wales was included was that Glamorgan have played in the Championship for ages. It's really rather a shame that no Scottish or Irish counties did, as then the new Board that replaced The TCCB would have been officially inclusive of everything that it was unofficially inclusive of before.

And the other central point I've been making is that it was a bad idea to try and separate one cricketing country into three. Because there has never been the interest in either Scotland or Ireland, despite notable cricketing feats from both, to sustain separate sides.

 

[Goughy]

4. For Wales to gain its own ICC member status, Glamorgan would have to be removed from the county championship and replaced with an English county. It could no longer recieve funding from the ECB. The Ashes test would also be moved from cardiff.
Wales could not select any player of British nationality if it suited them, unless they chose to reside in Wales and qualified for 4 years.
It's never going to happen - the current arrangement is the only way Wales will stage test cricket - it's not like Wales are just an afterthought anyhow - most of the top bods at the ECB are Welshmen, including the top bod - David Morgan

Wales could pick any non-English born qualified players as they are qualified to play for Wales. If they are presently qualified to play for England then they qualify for Wales as it is currently the same thing.

Obviously if Wales seperated any newly qualified player would have to be based and qualify in Wales.

Im not sure that Glamorgan cant stay in CC (emphasis on the 'not sure'). As far as I understand the only qualification is that any new Test nation must have a FC comp. That can be done without Glamorgan leaving the CC.

Something like
South Wales (eg Glamorgan and Monmouthshire)
Rest of Wales
Ireland
Scotland and
Combined Welsh Universities

Scotland and Ireland playing like Namibia did in SA FC this season

would be fine and Glamorgan stay in the CC.

As for losing an Ashes Test. Sofia Gardens would host a min of 3 Tests and 5 ODIs a year if seperate.

 

[JKL]

Of course Wales could pick Welsh players, thats not the point i'm making. They could not however pick and choose from the county circuit as players must have been based in Wales for 4 years.

I'm sure the ECB would insist on that clause (which is what every other country has to) to protect their own player pool.

There's no way Glamorgan could stay in the CC, thats basically having the cake and eating it!
Do you think the ECB would give revenue mainly coming from the England team to a team that would obviously be under the auspices of another countries board?

It wouldn't happen.

 

[JKL]

and now Scotland want independance.

We do?

I think you'll find the majority of scots oppose it. Except the vocal minority and they are entitled to their view.

 

[Richard]

I was thinking that - was the first I'd heard of such a thing.

 

[roobarb]

I've read some effing rubbish on some sites in my time, but this thread has to take the prize. Please.....

 

[Stefano]

How many Scottish or Irish cricketers have played for England?

 

[Richard]

Not a particularly remarkable number, because the game's never been quite so popular there as in much of England and southern Wales.