***Official** West Indies in England***

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

so, will Flintoff replace Hoggard (or one of the Durham boys if Hoggy is fit), or will we be seeing five bowlers again? If so, which batsman is for the chop?

England played 4 bowlers + Collingwood in the first Test. It makes no sense to go to 5 bowlers when two of your bowlers are as ineffective as Harmison and Plunkett. Best to bring Flintoff in for one of the two and get a more potent attack. That said, I fear for Flintoff being rushed back to the bowling crease. Very short-sighted IMO.

 

[Richard]

Everything seems to indicate it'll be a straight swap of Anderson for Hoggard - and if Flintoff's fit he'll replace someone. Thing is, I can't possibly see him being fit - maybe ever again - and certainly not for this game.

Surely - surely - they won't drop Bell or Collingwood? And let's hope they don't drop Strauss and as a result have Vaughan opening.

 

[GIMH]

To make someone captain for one match, then drop him for the next would be a very silly move

 

[Richard]

Mark Butcher.

 

[GIMH]

Did that happen to him? I can't remember

 

[Richard]

Yep. Old Trafford 1999 (one of the two The Year Of Four Captains), made captain when Hussain broke his finger at Lord's (after Thorpe had been in temporary charge for that game), then dropped for The Oval when Hussain returned to captain the side.

Hardly surprising, though, as he was in the middle at that time of the horror trot where he didn't score a half-century for, what, 22 innings or something (may even have been more). The mistake was making him captain ITFP, really.

 

[GIMH]

Ah yes, didn't him and Thorpe fall out over that?

 

[Richard]

Haha, don't think so. Not something I'd ever heard of before.

 

[GIMH]

Yeha, pretty sure Thorpe mentions it in his book. They definitely fell out, and I'm almost certain it was Thorpe being pissy about Butcher getting the captaincy.

The book is at home, I shall try and remember tonight. Might be able to post at home tonight

 

[Poker Boy]

Flintoff can't be fit. He hasn't bowled in a match yet, and I don't care how many overs you bowl in the nets, it ain't the same as the middle. But still, this just delays the decision - and brings us to one of England's problems. Why don't our batsmen bowl? We've had some who could have gave us, say 10 overs an innings (Hick. Vaughan, Trescothick bowled a bit whern he started) but they seem to be unwilling/able to work at it. Remember KP started as a spinner, why has he neglected it? If we had a Gayle, a Jaysauriya, an Astle or even one of the Waugh twins - all of whom were/are competent part time bowlers - we could have Flintoff at No 7 (he hasn't been a Test No 6 except against the poor NZ/WI attacks of 2004) four bowlers and use two of the batsmen as stand breakers capable of delivering some overs to give the main four a rest. Collingwood and KP are the two in this batting line up that are capable of this so they should be working on it. Another point - people talk about injuries but batsmen get injured too. If one batsman breaks a finger or has to spend time off the field so can't bat to No 7 (which happpens sometimes) you then have Flintoff at No 5 - and that IS a bad idea!

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Flintoff can't be fit. He hasn't bowled in a match yet, and I don't care how many overs you bowl in the nets, it ain't the same as the middle. But still, this just delays the decision - and brings us to one of England's problems. Why don't our batsmen bowl? We've had some who could have gave us, say 10 overs an innings (Hick. Vaughan, Trescothick bowled a bit whern he started) but they seem to be unwilling/able to work at it. Remember KP started as a spinner, why has he neglected it? If we had a Gayle, a Jaysauriya, an Astle or even one of the Waugh twins - all of whom were/are competent part time bowlers - we could have Flintoff at No 7 (he hasn't been a Test No 6 except against the poor NZ/WI attacks of 2004) four bowlers and use two of the batsmen as stand breakers capable of delivering some overs to give the main four a rest. Collingwood and KP are the two in this batting line up that are capable of this so they should be working on it.

Not just anyone with a bit of talent can be a worthwhile Test bowler. Pietersen is a superior batsman to Gayle and Jayasuriya, but an inferior allrounder. He's in the team as a batsman, and as such, I'd pick him every time and in every situation ahead of the likes of Gayle and Jayasuriya. The fact is that, although he started as a spinner, he's a batsman at heart and therefore is right to spend most of his focus on batting.

Chanderpaul and Lara can bowl a bit. In fact, Chanderpaul bowled pretty often when he started out. But neither were ever going to be worthwhile international bowlers, so they worked on and improved their batting to exceptional standards. Every player has his worth, and for many, that worth is in a specialist role.

Regarding Collingwood, I'm fairly certain he puts a lot of work into his bowling and is a very handy bowler as such. As good an allrounder as Gayle and Jayasuriya at least.

Another point - people talk about injuries but batsmen get injured too. If one batsman breaks a finger or has to spend time off the field so can't bat to No 7 (which happpens sometimes) you then have Flintoff at No 5 - and that IS a bad idea!

You can't structure a team anticipating that a batsman could break a finger though. You structure it for balance assuming that 11 players will be available throughout the match. It's the only way to do things efficiently. The bigger issue with a 5-man attack is that one bowler (probably even Panesar) is going to have very little work to do, therefore proving inconsequential almost.

 

[Goughy]

Flintoff can't be fit. He hasn't bowled in a match yet, and I don't care how many overs you bowl in the nets, it ain't the same as the middle. But still, this just delays the decision - and brings us to one of England's problems. Why don't our batsmen bowl? We've had some who could have gave us, say 10 overs an innings (Hick. Vaughan, Trescothick bowled a bit whern he started) but they seem to be unwilling/able to work at it. Remember KP started as a spinner, why has he neglected it? If we had a Gayle, a Jaysauriya, an Astle or even one of the Waugh twins - all of whom were/are competent part time bowlers - we could have Flintoff at No 7 (he hasn't been a Test No 6 except against the poor NZ/WI attacks of 2004) four bowlers and use two of the batsmen as stand breakers capable of delivering some overs to give the main four a rest. Collingwood and KP are the two in this batting line up that are capable of this so they should be working on it. Another point - people talk about injuries but batsmen get injured too. If one batsman breaks a finger or has to spend time off the field so can't bat to No 7 (which happpens sometimes) you then have Flintoff at No 5 - and that IS a bad idea!

Its something that has bothered me for a long time. They just dont work on their bowling enough and in the CC they dont get enough meaningful overs.

Every good Test team for a long time has had a specialist batsman that can bowl some useful overs.

You mention "Gayle, a Jaysauriya, an Astle or even one of the Waugh twins" but there are so many more. In fact bowling became an important factor in some batsmen getting selected.

Blewett, Bevan, Border, Greg Chappell, Michael Clarke, Bob Simpson, Doug Walters etc

Viv Richards, Jimmy Adams, Wavell Hinds, Hooper, Sarwan, Phil Simmons, Sir Frank Worrell etc


I will not go on for every team but the only specialist batsmen I can easily recall England often using as a bowler is Gooch (and maybe Boycott). Hick, Butcher, Tresco, KP, Collingwood etc could all have been used more and could have played a useful role and become a part of the England attack (especially KP as having a spec bat as the 2nd spinner is very useful).

They just need to bowl more for their counties and in tour games and work damn hard on their bowling.

It is an English disease not to make the batsmen work on their bowling.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Like Wavell Hinds, I rate Mark Butcher's bowling in particular conditions. Definitely underused at times, IMO.

 

[FBU]

The irony being that Dilley turned-out, by Hussain's own admission, to be far too old-school: "By then I was also beginning to get fed-up with our bowling coach Graham Dilley, who was a lovely bloke but just not firm enough - he was more interested in having a pint and a fag with the bowlers than in coaching." (Not an exact quote but it's something along those lines)

I'm not sure what Bob Cottam is up to these days, and how his health is (he's in his mid-60s IIRR) but I for one would not be sorry to see him given another chance to work with the team.

A bit old but I like the part about Courtney Walsh and the slower ball.
http://www.cricketeurope.net/DATABASE/ARTICLES/articles/000017/001700.shtml

 

[four_or_six]

Its something that has bothered me for a long time. They just dont work on their bowling enough and in the CC they dont get enough meaningful overs.

The bowlers are expected to work on their batting, isn't it fair that the batsmen work on their bowling?

 

[Richard]

A bit old but I like the part about Courtney Walsh and the slower ball.
http://www.cricketeurope.net/DATABASE/ARTICLES/articles/000017/001700.shtml

Haha. Well I'd never have guessed the Walsh slower-ball was a Cottam production.

Interesting that there's not a single mention of Cooley in that article, though, as that was the time when the Cooley-enthusiasm had reached fever-pitch (and just before he returned to Australia).

 

[Richard]

Not just anyone with a bit of talent can be a worthwhile Test bowler. Pietersen is a superior batsman to Gayle and Jayasuriya, but an inferior allrounder. He's in the team as a batsman, and as such, I'd pick him every time and in every situation ahead of the likes of Gayle and Jayasuriya. The fact is that, although he started as a spinner, he's a batsman at heart and therefore is right to spend most of his focus on batting.

Pietersen, so Kev tells us, was actually a batsman who was mistakenly treated as a spinner. Jayasuriya, on the other hand, actually was a spinner at the start of his career, and a six-seven sort of lower-order batsman. It was only under Ranatunga's tutelege that he became a batsman.

 

[Richard]

Yeha, pretty sure Thorpe mentions it in his book. They definitely fell out, and I'm almost certain it was Thorpe being pissy about Butcher getting the captaincy.

The book is at home, I shall try and remember tonight. Might be able to post at home tonight

I've actually got the thing myself, but I still haven't managed to get past the first couple of chapters due to the tugging at the heartstrings caused.

 

[marc71178]

Which numbers exactly are these? Top three? Or top seven (which is what I'd call notable scalps under normal circumstances)?

Top 4 - anything below that is the middle or lower order.

 

[Bob Bamber]

Strauss last summer I thought used Pietersen and Bell very well as the fifth bowler (there was no Flintoff at that point). And they bowled pretty well. But I think that Englands best "Part Timer" is Michael Vaughan , his off spin can be pretty useful at times (who remembers that ball he bowled at Tendulkar). If Flintoff comes in , one of the 5 centurions has to be dropped. Flintoff's ankle won't allow him to be part of a 4 man attack.