Worst Player To...

[Richard]

MJK Smith springs immediately to mind.
As does Keith Fletcher, whose respectable average owes was largely acquired by filling his boots against weak attacks but failing miserably against anyone any good.
And John Emburey, of course.

And Denness if he'd played a few more.

 

[Richard]

Hooper is the worst to play 100 tests by a distance IMO. A distinctly average test player who was kept in the team by stubborness, lack of competition and the occasional impressive innings. Atherton would probably be second, though he wasn't terrible by any means, and it's a fairly select club.

The worst to play 100 ODIs would probably be Ricardo Powell IMO. Absolute joke of a player.

Cut it down to 50 tests and Giles definitely comes into play. It's nothing short of astonishing that he and Ramprakash played for that long.

It isn't. There's a very obvious reason they played so long - the "you need variation" argument in the case of Giles (and there's absolutely no two ways about the simple fact of the matter that Giles was round about the best spinner in England between 2000 and 2006, equal for the most part with Croft) and the fact that Ramprakash was a magnificent batsmen who just happened to be completely incapable between 1991 and 1995 of hacking it at the top level.

And I've said it before - your low opinion of Atherton is based on great ignorance IMO.

Spot on with Powell, mind.

 

[gettingbetter]

Ok

i think Ramprakash scoring over 2000 FC runs last year shows why he played so many tests!!

Maybe I should change the thread to 'Worst Performing Test Cricket' who have played x and z.

In regards to Butcher:
1. In his career, he performed slightly worse against Australia against his career stats

2. Who are the other players worse than Butcher? Sure there were a few, but for the sake of the argument, I want a subjective criteria (surely if you've played 50 or more tests, you are some what established as a cricketer) to analyse players on

3. Surely an arguemtn for Butcher being better than Collingwood can be made. Collingwood's scored a 100 in India and broke the long standing double century record in Australia. Even though its early days so far, he has proven more than Butcher has in his whole career

I think Giles cops it a little bit too much, and its mainly come when Fletcher has had a few words on Giles 'prowess'

 

[Richard]

In regards to Butcher:
1. In his career, he performed slightly worse against Australia against his career stats

So? What the hell has that to do with anything? From 2001 onwards (excluding Zimbabwe and Bangladesh) Butcher averaged 41.10 across 74 innings. That is an excellent record.

2. Who are the other players worse than Butcher? Sure there were a few, but for the sake of the argument, I want a subjective criteria (surely if you've played 50 or more tests, you are some what established as a cricketer) to analyse players on

I don't really see why 50 Tests is remotely relevant, so here is a list of non-flybynight batsmen (the only ones that can be compared - bowlers are utterly irrelevant) who appeared for England around about the same time Butcher did and are worse...
John Crawley, Nick Knight, Marcus Trescothick, Graeme Hick, Mark Ramprakash, Paul Collingwood.

Only Strauss and Cook of recent established batsmen can be said to be better than him IMO.

3. Surely an arguemtn for Butcher being better than Collingwood can be made. Collingwood's scored a 100 in India and broke the long standing double century record in Australia. Even though its early days so far, he has proven more than Butcher has in his whole career

SO? Batting is not about 1 or 2 innings, it's about consistency. It's also about performing against decent attacks and in challenging conditions, and Collingwood's double was on a pitch as flat as you could wish for against not-especially-challenging bowling (even Warne was emphatically not at his best in that innings, Lee is poor and McGrath and Clark barely moved a ball all game). His century at Nagpur was excellent in its own ways, but was also on a pitch which couldn't have been flatter.

Butcher achieved far more than Collingwood is ever likely to.

 

[grecian]

Well, my vote would be for Giles in the 50, by such a long way its incredible. Ramps is up there of course.

Atherton wins by an absolute street in the 100 caps bracket, truly shows how poor England had been up until recently. Hooper at least bowled a bit.

Matters little if there was no better to replace them, the question is whether they're the poorest to make those marks.

Disagree with Butcher though, feel he was really unlucky to get injured when he did, he was still a quality bat, now seems forgotten. Tresco's much better then him though, and the continued colly-baiting of some is mystifying, and can only be down to a refusal to be proved wrong, even when patently obviously they are.

 

[simmy]

Hooper is the worst to play 100 tests by a distance IMO. A distinctly average test player who was kept in the team by stubborness, lack of competition and the occasional impressive innings. Atherton would probably be second, though he wasn't terrible by any means, and it's a fairly select club.

The worst to play 100 ODIs would probably be Ricardo Powell IMO. Absolute joke of a player.

Cut it down to 50 tests and Giles definitely comes into play. It's nothing short of astonishing that he and Ramprakash played for that long.

Atherton averaged 38 against some of the best bowling attacks ever in World Cricket.

I do not think he deserves this accolade whatsoever and actually think he gave a lot to English cricket.

 

[Jamee999]

Giles played in 54, he hardly tore it up

Yes, I'd be ashamed to get out to him

 

[Sandman]

Michael Vaughn for ODI's, can't score 100 in that many games you're poo...

 

[Hoppy1987]

Atherton averaged 38 against some of the best bowling attacks ever in World Cricket.

I do not think he deserves this accolade whatsoever and actually think he gave a lot to English cricket.

poor cricket pundit and commentator though!! haha

 

[simmy]

Yes, I'd be ashamed to get out to him

That ball is so overrated. Martyn just missed the damn thing.

At the time though I was jumping up and down like the rest of us though.

What a series...

 

[simmy]

Atherton had to face bowlers and overs like this throughout this career:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9o0iK3utOA

 

[superkingdave]

think you are missing the point,

SR Waugh 168 10927 51.06 92 37.44 112 - 112 AUS
AR Border 156 11174 50.56 39 39.10 156 - 156 AUS
SK Warne 145 3154 17.32 708 25.41 125 - 125 AUS
SR Tendulkar 135 10668 54.70 38 50.68 85 - 85 IND
AJ Stewart 133 8463 39.54 0 - 263 14 277 ENG
CA Walsh 132 936 7.54 519 24.44 29 - 29 WI
BC Lara 131 11953 52.88 0 - 164 - 164 WI/ICC-XI
N Kapil Dev 131 5248 31.05 434 29.64 64 - 64 IND
ME Waugh 128 8029 41.81 59 41.16 181 - 181 AUS
SM Gavaskar 125 10122 51.12 1 206.00 108 - 108 IND
Javed Miandad 124 8832 52.57 17 40.11 93 1 94 PAK
GD McGrath 124 641 7.36 563 21.64 38 - 38 AUS
IVA Richards 121 8540 50.23 32 61.37 122 - 122 WI
Inzamam-ul-Haq 119 8813 50.07 0 - 81 - 81 PAK/ICC-XI
IA Healy 119 4356 27.39 - - 366 29 395 AUS
GA Gooch 118 8900 42.58 23 46.47 103 - 103 ENG
DI Gower 117 8231 44.25 1 20.00 74 - 74 ENG
DL Haynes 116 7487 42.29 1 8.00 65 - 65 WI
DB Vengsarkar 116 6868 42.13 0 - 78 - 78 IND
MA Atherton 115 7728 37.69 2 151.00 83 - 83 ENG
MC Cowdrey 114 7624 44.06 0 - 120 - 120 ENG
A Kumble 113 2049 17.21 547 28.65 50 - 50 IND
RT Ponting 110 9368 59.29 5 46.20 124 - 124 AUS
CH Lloyd 110 7515 46.67 10 62.20 90 - 90 WI
M Muralitharan 110 1117 11.75 674 21.73 59 - 59 SL/ICC-XI
G Boycott 108 8114 47.72 7 54.57 33 - 33 ENG
CG Greenidge 108 7558 44.72 0 - 96 - 96 WI
R Dravid 107 9174 57.33 1 39.00 147 - 147 IND/ICC-XI
JH Kallis 107 8430 55.09 213 31.71 105 - 105 RSA/ICC-XI
DC Boon 107 7422 43.65 0 - 99 - 99 AUS
ST Jayasuriya 107 6791 40.42 96 34.17 78 - 78 SL
SM Pollock 107 3781 32.31 416 23.19 72 - 72 RSA
JL Langer 105 7696 45.27 0 - 73 - 73 AUS
MA Taylor 104 7525 43.49 1 26.00 157 - 157 AUS
SP Fleming 104 6620 39.64 - - 159 - 159 NZ
Wasim Akram 104 2898 22.64 414 23.62 44 - 44 PAK
Saleem Malik 103 5768 43.69 5 82.80 65 - 65 PAK
CL Hooper 102 5762 36.46 114 49.42 115 - 115 WI
IT Botham 102 5200 33.54 383 28.40 120 - 120 ENG
MV Boucher 102 3844 30.26 1 6.00 376 16 392 RSA/ICC-XI
G Kirsten 101 7289 45.27 2 71.00 83 - 83 RSA
S Chanderpaul 101 6736 44.60 8 100.25 44 - 44 WI
GP Thorpe 100 6744 44.66 0 - 105 - 105 ENG

Who on that list (apart from Hooper) would you say is worse than Athers?

 

[grecian]

'tis the point really, Hooper and Boucher the only other realistic options, I'd have thought, and they both have two parts to their game.

 

[marc71178]

think you are missing the point,



Who on that list (apart from Hooper) would you say is worse than Athers?

Fleming or Jayasuriya for mine.

 

[simmy]

I don't understand what that list proves at all.

 

[open365]

That saying Atherton is a good player is ignoring the question, was he good compared to the other players with 100+ caps?

I'm going with Ramprakash slightly ahead of Giles for the worst England player with over 50 test caps

 

[Nishant]

Boje's retired now isn't he?

Damnit, you may be right.

thats why he retired!

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Hooper is the worst to play 100 tests by a distance IMO. A distinctly average test player who was kept in the team by stubborness, lack of competition and the occasional impressive innings.

Averaged 46 for his last 22 Tests. So maybe he's just the worst player to play 80 Tests.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Who on that list (apart from Hooper) would you say is worse than Athers?

Courtney Walsh couldn't bat to save his life. Hooper had a fine cover drive.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

thats why he retired!

No, he retired because, despite being the best spin option available to South Africa, he was being totally overlooked for selection. For what he was worth - a defensive spinner who could definitely contribute with the bat - he wasn't the worst.