**Official** India in Bangladesh

[Perm]

Which is, plain and simply, wrong IMO. Your best XI should be fielded at all times as far as I'm concerned, and when that ceases to happen, you cease to be playing a test match.

It's a different story if a spot opens up and a young, perhaps not as qualified player is selected on a permanent basis, but resting players from test matches and giving players deliberate one-off series against lower sides is not something that should exist in test cricket as far as I'm concerned.

It's the same principle as what the All Blacks are doing, not sure whether you are familiar with them. They are resting key players and picking younger, more raw players in their spots in order to give them game time and exposure at the highest level. This will help them significantly along the track as they will have a whole group of youngsters who have already partially adapted to test matches and are ready to play.

I know that cricket holds status and prestige as far more important ideas than they do in rugby, but the same priniciple applies IMO.

 

[Perm]

Kaif averages 63 in his last 5 tests.....what's there to suggest that he doesn't deserve a test spot ahead of an incumbent ????

Well, the selectors have been dicking him around a bit meaning he can't get any consistency in his selection. It's not really our fault, and the stats do suggest he has been in good form in the last few Test's he has played.

 

[Prince EWS]

Kaif averages 63 in his last 5 tests.....what's there to suggest that he doesn't deserve a test spot ahead of an incumbent ????

He has a FC average under 40 and a test average in the low 30s. Really, no-one ever deserves a spot ahead of the incumbent unless the incumbent fails - Ganguly and Laxman haven't done that.

 

[Prince EWS]

It's the same principle as what the All Blacks are doing, not sure whether you are familiar with them. They are resting key players and picking younger, more raw players in their spots in order to give them game time and exposure at the highest level. This will help them significantly along the track as they will have a whole group of youngsters who have already partially adapted to test matches and are ready to play.

I know that cricket holds status and prestige as far more important ideas than they do in rugby, but the same priniciple applies IMO.

The All Blacks doing something doesn't automatically make it right though, obviously.

I'm well aware that it happens all the time - but it certainly shouldn't IMO, especially in a game like cricket which still has high levels of integrity, prestige and distinction within its higher-level statuses.

 

[Perm]

He has a FC average under 40 and a test average in the low 30s. Really, no-one ever deserves a spot ahead of the incumbent unless the incumbent fails - Ganguly and Laxman haven't done that.

Usually I am taking the same stance as you on these issues, and Dhoni vs Karthik is a classic example. I can't understand why so many people would prefer Karthik as first choice wicket keeper when Dhoni has done very little wrong, and is steadily improving. I guess it's a little hypocritical of me but I genuinely beleive that Kaif and Yuvraj need some game time.

 

[Perm]

The All Blacks doing something doesn't automatically make it right though, obviously.

I'm well aware that it happens all the time - but it certainly shouldn't IMO, especially in a game like cricket which still has high levels of integrity, prestige and distinction within its higher-level statuses.

Not trying to justifty it just because the All Blacks do it, I just was using it to point out that it is the done thing in sport thesedays. I do understand your point about Test cricket not being compromised, but really if you think about it then it already is because Bangladesh and Zimbabwe are Test playing nations. Mind you, that's a whole different debate.

 

[Salamuddin]

He has a FC average under 40 and a test average in the low 30s. Really, no-one ever deserves a spot ahead of the incumbent unless the incumbent fails - Ganguly and Laxman haven't done that.

His test average is a poor indicator if you look at the number as is......he's had a very stop start career.

And I don't think FC numbers are the be all and end all........he's produced good performances of late at test level and that's what counts. He's also shown he can get runs when his team is ina spot and that's something a lot of INdian batsmen have not been able to do siince 2004/2005.

Ganguly has been ok of late, but nothing outstanding ......I certainly don't really see
how he's got a lock down on his position. Why not pick a younger guy who could well do a better job or at least as good than Ganguly/Tendulkar/ and he would also have the time and the ability to improve ?

 

[Prince EWS]

His test average is a poor indicator if you look at the number as is......he's had a very stop start career.

And I don't think FC numbers are the be all and end all........he's produced good performances of late at test level and that's what counts. He's also shown he can get runs when his team is ina spot and that's something a lot of INdian batsmen have not been able to do siince 2004/2005.

Ganguly has been ok of late, but nothing outstanding ......I certainly don't really see
how he's got a lock down on his position. Why not pick a younger guy who could well do a better job or at least as good than Ganguly/Tendulkar/ and he would also have the time and the ability to improve ?

Why not do it? Because Ganguly and Laxman have done nothing to do get dropped.

You could make a case for dropping Tendulkar for him - but I know I'd certainly rather have Tendulkar in my team than Kaif, poor run of form or not.

And I find it amusing that don't rate first class stats as a good indicator, and yet are willing to sit there and point out that Kaif has done well over his last [insert really random and quite small] number of tests. First class stats will always be a better indicator of ability than a segment of five test matches - as will entire test careers.

 

[Perm]

His test average is a poor indicator if you look at the number as is......he's had a very stop start career.

He has had a very rough start to his Test career, but equally when he has had the opportunity I don't think he has performed as well as he should have.

And I don't think FC numbers are the be all and end all........he's produced good performances of late at test level and that's what counts. He's also shown he can get runs when his team is ina spot and that's something a lot of INdian batsmen have not been able to do siince 2004/2005.

Quite right, FC stats are a decent indicator if a player is going to be any good but they are definately not the be all and end all. What Prince was trying to point out was that Kaif has a pretty poor FC and Test record, indicating that he may not even be that good of a FC player now or in the future.

Ganguly has been ok of late, but nothing outstanding ......I certainly don't really see how he's got a lock down on his position. Why not pick a younger guy who could well do a better job or at least as good than Ganguly/Tendulkar/ and he would also have the time and the ability to improve ?

Because Test sides need experience when facing tougher opposition, it's a simple fact. If you go in with a team that's too young and too inexperienced then they won't be able to handle the pressure, and will duly succumb. Ganguly played better than all of the Indian batsman in South Africa on some very tough pitches, that's why he has a "lock down" on his position and is relatively safe if the selectors were to field the best XI against Bangladesh.

 

[honestbharani]

Laxman is a better test batsman than Ganguly and has been for quite some time - as that 60 test (wtf - random number..) sample shows. They should both play really, IMO - playing less than your best XI deliberately in a test match is against the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned.

even if your best players are dropped only because they are being disciplined????????

 

[Salamuddin]

Why not do it? Because Ganguly and Laxman have done nothing to do get dropped.

You could make a case for dropping Tendulkar for him - but I know I'd certainly rather have Tendulkar in my team than Kaif, poor run of form or not.

And I find it amusing that don't rate first class stats as a good indicator, and yet are willing to sit there and point out that Kaif has done well over his last [insert really random and quite small] number of tests. First class stats will always be a better indicator of ability than a segment of five test matches - as will entire test careers.

Ganguly has been mediocre for a long time now as has Tendulkar.
NOw there's no saying whether a Kaif, or a Badrinath or a tIwari will be any better if they're given a chance but the choice is this, put simply: mediocrity or the unknown (could be mediocrity or excellence) ?
I'd much rather plump for the unknown in this case......

Congratulations on completely missing my point on Kaif
I said FC averages are not the be all and all not that "they are not a good indicator".
Kaif's first class average has actually improved over the last couple of seasons but even given that , the
history of test cricket shows there have been several players with not-so-great test records that have gone on to be decent test cricketers. In Kaif's case, he has played test cricket so you need to take that into account - and from what I've seen, I think he deserves more of a run. His 91 at Nagpur was one of the best I've seen from an Indian batsman over the last 3 years - this is a guy who has shown he can make runs under pressure against good attacks. Contrast that to Ganguly (and dare I say it even Tendulkar) who has invariably flopped in similar circumstances.....even in RSA, he got starts and he should have converted them --- that's why I say he doesn't have a lock down on his position. Ganguly did just enough to be considered again but it was hardly anything outstanding, and as I said what's to say a replacement would not have done better ?


And your last point of picking Tendulkar over Kaif, irrespective of form is nothing short of a complete joke . You pick players on performance, period.
And Ganguly's and Tendulkar's and Sehwag's performances have not been upto scratch.
Hence I don't see why changes aren't justified.

 

[Anil]

You could make a case for dropping Tendulkar for him - but I know I'd certainly rather have Tendulkar in my team than Kaif, poor run of form or not.

why? that mentality has to go out of indian cricket...what is the point in having a player, however great he was, if he gives you single-digit scores each innings? kaif hadn't done anything wrong when he was dropped to accomodate tendulkar, and tendulkar hasn't done anything since to justify his inclusion...

 

[Nishant]

why? that mentality has to go out of indian cricket...what is the point in having a player, however great he was, if he gives you single-digit scores each innings? kaif hadn't done anything wrong when he was dropped to accomodate tendulkar, and tendulkar hasn't done anything since to justify his inclusion...

Spot on...i would like to see Kaif back into the team just to try him out. We need to realise that Tendulkar does not = India! Tendulkar wins us as many games as any other player and sometimes less....he should not have a cemented place in the team. Yet i also believe that if he is in the team, he should not be blamed for every defeat. He should be treated like any other player! India need to resolve this problem urgently: NO PLAYER IS A STAR!

 

[cricman]

NEW DELHI, April 9: The Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) plans to dump the big six of Indian cricket — Sachin Tendulkar, Sourav Ganguly, Virender Sehwag, Zaheer Khan, Harbhajan Singh and Ajit Agarkar — for the upcoming tour to Bangladesh.

If India lose the ODI series alot more heads will roll, IMO a golden opportunity for Bangladesh

http://worldcup.indiatimes.com/BCCI_plans_to_dump_six_senior_players/articleshow/1881437.cms

 

[Nishant]

If India lose the ODI series alot more heads will roll, IMO a golden opportunity for Bangladesh

http://worldcup.indiatimes.com/BCCI_plans_to_dump_six_senior_players/articleshow/1881437.cms

Also a chance for india to try new guys...a golden opportunity for them IMO...will keep the senior players on their toes. The fact that all six are dumped might also be an advantage in the sense that we will have a very young team that will not be surrounded by stuck up seniors who think that they are the best...im saying that this is what was happening, but at least it gives the youngsters less pressure IMO! But you are right in that if we lose to Bangladesh, more heads will roll. But at least a defeat might be taken more lightly! And u never know, less expectation could be good for the young guns of india.

 

[Prince EWS]

why? that mentality has to go out of indian cricket...what is the point in having a player, however great he was, if he gives you single-digit scores each innings? kaif hadn't done anything wrong when he was dropped to accomodate tendulkar, and tendulkar hasn't done anything since to justify his inclusion...

Because I'd be more confident in him scoring runs for the team, quite obviously. As I said, you make a case for Tendulkar being dropped for Kaif or Yuvraj, but you could not make a case for Laxman or Ganguly being dropped as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Perm]

even if your best players are dropped only because they are being disciplined????????

I think being stood down from the team is a little bit different, if players are not being picked because of disciplinary reasons then that is fair enough IMO. If a player does something that deserves punishment, he should be punished.

 

[Perm]

Ganguly has been mediocre for a long time now as has Tendulkar.
NOw there's no saying whether a Kaif, or a Badrinath or a tIwari will be any better if they're given a chance but the choice is this, put simply: mediocrity or the unknown (could be mediocrity or excellence) ?
I'd much rather plump for the unknown in this case......

Congratulations on completely missing my point on Kaif
I said FC averages are not the be all and all not that "they are not a good indicator".
Kaif's first class average has actually improved over the last couple of seasons but even given that , the
history of test cricket shows there have been several players with not-so-great test records that have gone on to be decent test cricketers. In Kaif's case, he has played test cricket so you need to take that into account - and from what I've seen, I think he deserves more of a run. His 91 at Nagpur was one of the best I've seen from an Indian batsman over the last 3 years - this is a guy who has shown he can make runs under pressure against good attacks. Contrast that to Ganguly (and dare I say it even Tendulkar) who has invariably flopped in similar circumstances.....even in RSA, he got starts and he should have converted them --- that's why I say he doesn't have a lock down on his position. Ganguly did just enough to be considered again but it was hardly anything outstanding, and as I said what's to say a replacement would not have done better ?


And your last point of picking Tendulkar over Kaif, irrespective of form is nothing short of a complete joke . You pick players on performance, period.
And Ganguly's and Tendulkar's and Sehwag's performances have not been upto scratch.
Hence I don't see why changes aren't justified.

Not even going to argue with you anymore because it's obvious you aren't going to change your mind, especially seeing as how you are completely missing some of the points Prince and myself made.

 

[Anil]

Because I'd be more confident in him scoring runs for the team, quite obviously. As I said, you make a case for Tendulkar being dropped for Kaif or Yuvraj, but you could not make a case for Laxman or Ganguly being dropped as far as I'm concerned.

..and i didn't, why would i? as long as someone is performing, why would i make a case for them to be dropped? of course a player could potentially be dropped for other reasons such as attitude, but that's beside the point here....

 

[Perm]

why? that mentality has to go out of indian cricket...what is the point in having a player, however great he was, if he gives you single-digit scores each innings? kaif hadn't done anything wrong when he was dropped to accomodate tendulkar, and tendulkar hasn't done anything since to justify his inclusion...

I can understand what Prince is trying to say, the whole class is permanent and form is temporary debate. But Tendulkar has been in a prolonged form slump and doesn't deserve to make the team, however if the team was in a pressure cooker situation and needed somebody of immense talent and experience, Tendulkar would get my vote over Kaif 10 times out of 10.