Sunil blasts the Australians

[social]

Uhh..since when is mid 70s Euro-centric articles become 'a more balanced and realistic view' ?!?

Ok, 2003 Indian view good enough?

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030131/sports.htm

 

[Burgey]

Ok, 2003 Indian view good enough?

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030131/sports.htm

Either view is fine, frankly. For one pontificating on high standards, you seem to be placing a great store in the origin of commentator's views on this point, C_C.....

 

[honestbharani]

i don't think sarwan is really mean enough to pointedly allude to mcgrath's cancer-stricken wife, i would say it was more a spontaneous reaction in the heat of the moment to an obscenity flung at him....mcgrath lost his cool especially because his wife was not well at the time but as to lines being drawn somewhere, what you are saying is laughable(are you saying certain kinds of obscenities should be tolerated and certain others should be punished?), what mcgrath said crossed all bounds of decency and if he can't take it, he shouldn't dish it out...

honestly, Anil, I dont think it was right even if McGrath's wife was in the pink of health. I just dont like the idea of cricketers including friends/family in these sledging and slanging matches. And the shock was not about Sarwan but about the fact that "that" kind of response was considered "routine" by the Australian players themselves. Perhaps it is because of their culture and their outlook towards life, which is perhaps different from ours.


That is why ICC needs to come up with some standards reg. sledging and stuff, abt wat is acceptable and what isn't. The current thing has too many grey areas for my liking.

 

[honestbharani]

How many series as captain has Ponting lost? His skills weren't great in '05, but they proved pretty handy last summer out here. He's getting beter by the year as a captain. He's still relatviely new to it and already has one World Cup under his belt as skipper and a 5-0 thrashing of the 2nd ranked team in the world as well. A fair-dinkum dud.



Well, that's absurd, frankly. How does Ponting demean the role of captain? For having a crack at an umpire in that series in Malaysia and for a blow up at the England coach concerning tactics which he saw as unsporting and aboout which he had sought redress before the incident?

If those two incidents demean the role of captain, so must Inzi's effort at the Oval, Ganguly's claiming a catch from Gilchrist in the WC final in 03 that bounced a foot in front of him and his consistent refusal to appear at the toss on time in a test series, Gavaskar's walk off with Chauhan, Greig's abuse of Hookes in the 77 Centenary Test and his "make them grovel" remark, and Lloyd & Richards allowing their bowlers to get by sending down 65-75 overs per day in an era where the governing bodies were trying to speed up play.

So, if you want to say that Ponting demeans the position of captain, feel free to do so, but please oh please, for just once can we set the same standards for everyone, and not just a team or player you either do not support or simply just dislike?

if u are gonna include bump ball stuff, Burgey, Aussies claiming a hit wicket when Langer took off the bails must figure higher. Trust me, it was pathetic and was much worse than anything ever done by Ganguly.


And it is not like Aussies have never claimed bump ball catches. Slater is the #1 example for that.


That hit wicket incident happened in Warn'e comeback series in 2004 against Sri lanka, BTW. The batsman was Tillekeratne and the look on the umpires face when the Aussies (Gilly, Punter and Hayden) appealed so vociferously says it all for me.

 

[honestbharani]

Well, nice to know that you're capable of categorising everyone so well. For the sake of your argument, let's deal with the points you've raised.

Where are the "dime-a-dozen" stupid quotes he makes?

Ponting got into a fight in a pub years before he was made captain. So you're saying that that incident disqualifies him from assuming the captaincy years later? Then Botham should never have captained England given his run-in with Ian Chappell in a pub years before he was captain.

Disputes umpires' decisions. So Viv Richards should never have been made captain because he disputed an umpire's decision in a first class match in Antigua when given out for a duck, causing the crowd to riot and the match to be postponed until he was recalled (incidently, and pretty funnily, he then got another duck and furthermore completed a pair, or a triple, depending on which way you look at it ). He was suspended for about 12 months I think after that incident - should he never have captained the Windies, or do we (rightly, imo) forgive him that transgression? If Ponting or any other captain walks up to an umpire and asks him about a decision, is that dissent, or is he acting as he is entitled to inhis capacity as captain? I don't excuse the Malaysia blow up, which was frankly stupid on his part.

The Aussies have more on-field incidents which the authorities blatantly let slip: evidence please? That's a very broad comment to make and one which requires evidence if it is to be considered accurate. For Gods sake, Anre Nel carries on more in a twenty-twenty match than the entire Aussie team does in a season, and all I ever hear is "he's a character and he's good for the game". Furthermore, though slightly off the topic, if umpires and referees don't police things, that's a reflection on them as officials, not the Australian or any other cricket team for that matter.

Dealing with the categories you mentioned, in particular the first category, being "Those who agree with you". To say that there is a problem with Australian sporting culture in general, let alone with the cricket team is a base allegation. What do you say, that it's too aggressive, too over-the-top? Is that what you mean by "out of line?" That's a gross generalisation, the equivalent of me coming on here and saying that teams from the sub-continent aren't aggressive enough and are therefore soft. You just can't generalise like that. We've had many people say that there is a need for more cross-cultural understanding on the cricket field and sporting fields in general - well, that cuts both ways. Something which you may consider rude or aggressive may not be seen that way in another culture - understanding is a two-way street. The Australian sporting culture which you decry as out of line has produced as many Rafters, Rosewalls, Lavers, Thorpes, Hacketts, Woodfulls, Gilchrists, Freemans, Landys, (Ron) Clarkes and Lionel Roses as it has Hewitts, Mundines, (Merv) Hughes, etc.

As for other number one teams, it doen't matter where they are ranked - there's no excuse if behaviour is bad - Italy are number one in soccer, look at their cynical escapades at the World Cup last year ("diving's part of the game" - largely accepted by the footballing world).

I don't think the Australian team are angels - some of their behaviour isn't good, some of it is worse than not good. Most of it is good, and when it isn't they should be disciplined like everyone else. I don't see how their behaviour is worse than that of most other teams in general. I do, hoever, believe that their indiscretions are scrutinised to a greater extent because of their current ranking in world cricket.

As for Sunny - great player, though anyone who saw his walk off with Chauhan and seeks to apply the same standards as you do to Ponting, may wish to question Gavaskar's legacy to the game.

Edit: I don't consider my self intractable really, though that's a matter for others to decide. I'd just like you apply the same standards to other teams that you do to Australia. But if you wish to categorise the Australian team as ruffians and thugs (goons, in other words), then that's your prerogative.

wat abt the fact that he was insulted repeatedly, which prompted him to try walking off? As I said, cultural differences apply here and if those Aussie players who mouthed him off, didn't know that, they need to sit out and serve time, because you simply CANNOT be an international sportsman and keep saying that "I am not aware of cultural sensitivities" and stuff like that. There is a reason these guys are called INTERNATIONAL sportsmen.

Same applies to Border-Kapil instance too. And to Ponting-Srinath incident. That was the worst of the lot. I can understand a batsman talking back to a bowler or even sledge him like Miandad did, but the way Ponting let out an absolute barrage of what could only have been unparliamentary language at a bowler who was basically asking him how he was after he was hurt by one of his deliveries is easily one of the worst things I have ever seen on a cricket field, alongside Slater's stuff and the pandemonium in Calcutta in the 96 WC.

 

[luffy]

Everyone knows that the Australians sledge, it is common knowledge now, but honestly i feel that it doesn't matter how much you sledge as long as you win.

 

[honestbharani]

Ok, 2003 Indian view good enough?

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030131/sports.htm

For me, that incident will always mean only one thing: It showed that INdians didn't take ODI cricket seriously at all at that point of time. Funny they should be criticized for it, when teams like Australia field an A team at times in terms of rotation policy. Or resting their senior players during a series (who are not exactly injured and incapable of playing). That demeans those series' too. Is that a fault too?


I understand that the spectators would have been disappointed, but then spectators would also be disappointed at not seeing Ponting or Gilly in New Zealand inspite of them being quite alright. You guys are seriously clutching at straws here if that is the only thing you can find to fault Sunny. He has a million others and I dont like him at all either as a commentator. But that incident was a team decision. Sunny wasn't the only one who decided that winning the game didn't matter.

 

[honestbharani]

Everyone knows that the Australians sledge, it is common knowledge now, but honestly i feel that it doesn't matter how much you sledge as long as you win.

It matters in the sense of what is being said when they are "sledging". As I said, things are interpreted differently across different cultures and if they can't even be sensible to see all that, then they should be penalized.


And that applies to ALL international cricketers, really, not just the Aussies.

 

[Burgey]

It matters in the sense of what is being said when they are "sledging". As I said, things are interpreted differently across different cultures and if they can't even be sensible to see all that, then they should be penalized.


And that applies to ALL international cricketers, really, not just the Aussies.

Well said.

wat abt the fact that he was insulted repeatedly, which prompted him to try walking off? As I said, cultural differences apply here and if those Aussie players who mouthed him off, didn't know that, they need to sit out and serve time, because you simply CANNOT be an international sportsman and keep saying that "I am not aware of cultural sensitivities" and stuff like that. There is a reason these guys are called INTERNATIONAL sportsmen.

Same applies to Border-Kapil instance too. And to Ponting-Srinath incident. That was the worst of the lot. I can understand a batsman talking back to a bowler or even sledge him like Miandad did, but the way Ponting let out an absolute barrage of what could only have been unparliamentary language at a bowler who was basically asking him how he was after he was hurt by one of his deliveries is easily one of the worst things I have ever seen on a cricket field, alongside Slater's stuff and the pandemonium in Calcutta in the 96 WC.

Whether he was insulted or not is irrelevant frankly - he was being insulted because he stood there and didn't accept the umpire's decision. He carried on like a sook.

if u are gonna include bump ball stuff, Burgey, Aussies claiming a hit wicket when Langer took off the bails must figure higher. Trust me, it was pathetic and was much worse than anything ever done by Ganguly.


And it is not like Aussies have never claimed bump ball catches. Slater is the #1 example for that.


That hit wicket incident happened in Warn'e comeback series in 2004 against Sri lanka, BTW. The batsman was Tillekeratne and the look on the umpires face when the Aussies (Gilly, Punter and Hayden) appealed so vociferously says it all for me.

Hbh, I think we (and I include myself here) are beginning to talk in circles, becuase the tit-for-tatting backwards and forwards can go on forever. All I am saying is that I would like the people who pontificate on standards to judge all the teams by the same standards.

Btw, congrats on the award this week - well deserved imo.

To change the subject - your avatar - my screen isn't real flash - who's that with Sachin?

 

[adharcric]

Everyone knows that the Australians sledge, it is common knowledge now, but honestly i feel that it doesn't matter how much you sledge as long as you win.

WTF?

 

[honestbharani]

Well said.



Whether he was insulted or not is irrelevant frankly - he was being insulted because he stood there and didn't accept the umpire's decision. He carried on like a sook.



Hbh, I think we (and I include myself here) are beginning to talk in circles, becuase the tit-for-tatting backwards and forwards can go on forever. All I am saying is that I would like the people who pontificate on standards to judge all the teams by the same standards.

Btw, congrats on the award this week - well deserved imo.

To change the subject - your avatar - my screen isn't real flash - who's that with Sachin?

BCL.


My heroes.


And yeah, I do understand that we are talkin in circles here. Few points I want to leave, like a summary of sorts:

1. Australia were one of the worst behaved teams during the 90s. Not cheating and tampering and those things, but the way they behaved on the field did leave a lot to be desired.

2. Since then, other teams have also gone down in terms of behaviour to the extent that, right now, I dont think the current Aussie side is the worst behaved team in the world. Whether it is because Aussies have improved or because other teams have simply gotten worse, is up for debate.


3. I think ICC should bring in a more black and white code of conduct to deal with sledging and with what is acceptable and what isn't, keeping in mind the cultural sensitivities of the various nations involved.


4. Sunny is not the right man to make these kind of comments. And neither is Ponting the right man to be defending these allegations.

 

[Bracken]

This thread is one of the best examples of unintentional comedy I have seen in ages.

Kind of a cricket forum version of "Who's on First?"

Carry on...

 

[neurosurg]

I strongly believe that Australia are flying way too high because of their strong performance in recent years, but I also believe that if there is a way to shut them up then it has to be done by beating them and beating them alone.
No matter what they say on the field, the fact remains that they win the games and thats what counts, thats what people will remember and that is what will go down in the record books.
They are playing mind cricket, they beat their opponents before stepping on the field, most teams consider themselves underdogs when they are playing the Aussies, and as long as that mentality continues Australia will keep dominating.

Teams need to have more confidence in themselves and they need to believe in themselves.
Being an Indian fan, I would love to see nothing more than watching the Australia get humiliated at the hands of the very powerful Indian line-up.
All the best India, we can do it

 

[C_C]

Everyone knows that the Australians sledge, it is common knowledge now, but honestly i feel that it doesn't matter how much you sledge as long as you win.

steriotypical 'uncouth Aussie' response.
I am sorry but there is such a thing called civility.
The bar-room mentality belongs inside a bar, not in display to the whole world. If you feel sledging is fine at extreme levels, keep it at your state levels please.

 

[social]

For me, that incident will always mean only one thing: It showed that INdians didn't take ODI cricket seriously at all at that point of time. Funny they should be criticized for it, when teams like Australia field an A team at times in terms of rotation policy. Or resting their senior players during a series (who are not exactly injured and incapable of playing). That demeans those series' too. Is that a fault too?


I understand that the spectators would have been disappointed, but then spectators would also be disappointed at not seeing Ponting or Gilly in New Zealand inspite of them being quite alright. You guys are seriously clutching at straws here if that is the only thing you can find to fault Sunny. He has a million others and I dont like him at all either as a commentator. But that incident was a team decision. Sunny wasn't the only one who decided that winning the game didn't matter.

The major difference between Sunny's performance in Eng and Australia's rotational system etc is that Australia always tries to win

On the other hand, when faced with chasing 334 in one of the first, if not the first, game of the world cup, he responded with 36 n.o. off 174 deliveries!

It was an incredibly selfish and embarrassing performance and most other countries would've at least attempted to run him out to get someone in who was going to at least try

In general, I have no problem with Gavaskar as a commentator (I live in Dubai where he has a syndicated newspaper column and enjoy some, if not all of his thoughts) but to me his comments were the equivalent of Ian Chappell remarking during the last Aus summer that Nixon's level of sledging was unacceptable - Pot, Kettle, Black

As for Ponting and Gichrist - one was injured and the other stayed home to be with his wife during child-birth. Hardly worth criticising them for missing a meaningless series, particularly with another major tour around the corner

 

[Slow Love™]

Sunil Gavaskar, 57 (going on 90) vs Ricky Ponting 32 (going on 16). Surely the mother of all battles here.

My personal opinion is that over the last decade or so, Australia have been fairly poorly behaved in this particular way, and I don't believe it's down to just being the number one team. Beyond this I couldn't really give a **** about going tit for tat as to what Gavaskar's done in the past, because if we were all approaching this honestly, we'd know that it bears little or no relation to the context of Gavaskar's complaint.

The only real disagreement I have apart from being slightly annoyed at his constant mentioning of this whenever he gets the opportunity is his elevation of the West Indians to such saintly status. It's been said enough in the thread already, but IMO they were frequently poorly behaved. Cultural differences/influences have been brought up - actually I think this is an example of that. Gavaskar (maybe carefully?) omitted the 90's, where the West Indians were probably at their worst, but they were on various occasions openly hostile to their opponents. When I say this, I mean WAY beyond any definition of "sporting" behaviour, and occasionally including certain players outright refusing to socialise with the opposition. I tend to regard this more seriously than some sledging that takes part on the ground that's seperated from friendly relations off it. This is not designed to excuse anything that's genuinely beyond the pale like racism, extreme personal insults, etc, just an observation perhaps of cultural differences. And I agree with the point (I think) Burgey made, that expectations around making allowances for cultural differences do tend to only run one way when it comes to some people.

Further on the cultural thing, while there are certainly going to be Australian posters who may try too hard to excuse Australian behaviour, I also think there is a dichotomy present where many non-Australians try extremely hard to excuse or justify the West Indians for just about anything they do. Part of this may just be about sticking it to the Australians, though I've always kinda laughed at the way West Indians are regarded in general - you know, they're like the "cool" black guys that everybody wants to see well. I genuinely think something so trivial and silly informs quite a bit of the rose-colored glasses people tend to look at those teams via - apologies if anybody's offended by this, and I certainly don't intend to tar everybody on either side of the argument as being invested in such a way. I definitely think it's there, though.

Anyhow, lastly, social: Ian Chappell talking about too much sledging wasn't really a case of pot, kettle, black, IMO - he freely made a comparison to himself where he held his behaviour accountable, but also, I think it was just a case of having had enough. The level, and type of sledging isn't equivalent at all times, and I believe the kind of incessant (which was the point Chappelli was making) chatter which characterises some in the contemporary game really IS just going too far and getting out of hand. And yes, having watched the game frequently since stump mikes have been in play, I would say that it has gotten worse and more incessant, so I think it's a fair observation. It probably just took seeing an opposition player do it to ram the point home. I wouldn't be surprised at all if by now, many Aussies haven't had enough of that in particular.

 

[Burgey]

This thread is one of the best examples of unintentional comedy I have seen in ages.

Kind of a cricket forum version of "Who's on First?"

Carry on...

Well put indeed

BCL.


My heroes.

Yes, well as a supposedly conscientious cricket supporter, you would think that I might recognise a photo which shows two of the greats together - not one of my finer moments I think....

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

What's with Sunil's most recent comments about David Hookes etc? Not sure if it's a deliberate attempt to inflame things or just a dodgy explaination of a point.

 

[Laurrz]

lol Gavaskar has fired back...gosh what a prick
looks like he just wants to get the last word in or something..

lol if those two met each other atm imagine the tension.. would there be any?

 

[Slow Love™]

What's with Sunil's most recent comments about David Hookes etc? Not sure if it's a deliberate attempt to inflame things or just a dodgy explaination of a point.

Wow, did he just say that? Probably the latter (and I only say this because I can't conceive he would stoop as low as the former), but woeful judgement on his part. Hard to expect Ponting (and the Aussies) to do anything other than go ballistic about this, and fairly unseemly for a guy in his position, IMO.