Sunil blasts the Australians

[social]

TBH, I think eventually comments like these were going to come from Ponting. He seems naturally combative, and there have been a lot of comments of this sort directed at the side from during his tenure. This one from Gavaskar, which was unprovoked really (in terms of there not being an incident of note over the past week or anything, i.e. it isn't a current issue), was probably enough to have Ponting bite.

Ponting's no diplomat, the team's behaviour has improved (whilst the same cannot be said of others) and Gavaskar (despite being a legendary batsman) is a hypocrite where behaviour is concerned.

If Ponting is to be faulted, he should've got this guy (sroll thru to see the article on India's most disgcraceful moments in World Cup history) to write his speech

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030131/sports.htm

"People in glass houses, etc etc"

 

[vic_orthdox]

Going along that "cultural" topic of before, it's interesting to see who has voted for what here. Generally, those who support subcontinent teams have been saying "Yes", while the English have been split. Australian and NZ fans are the majority whom are saying "No".

 

[FRAZ]

Ponting's no diplomat, the team's behaviour has improved "

Well I agree with the improved statement but ironicaly I feel some time that whenever there is a patriotic issue then the negative things that are bound to be said to the personal team's captain then polite words are used like "Pointing's not a diplomat " etc etc but then on the other hand the "other" captains of the past are addressed like stupid , blind , idiots etc etc ..
People keep on Making my points stronger and stronger every damn day !!!
They think they are they and the others just rant !!

 

[Ikki]

hahahahahhahahaaahhaahahhahhahaaaaah !
wtf !
A pure self effort . Haven't seen it before ...

It seems there are a lot of things you haven't seen.

 

[Ikki]

I really didn't get the reason behind Ponting mentioning the records of India and Australia, since its the aussie on-field behaviour that Gavaskar targeted.

I think it's a way of indirectly calling him/them jealous.

 

[Scmods]

IMO, Ricky was just being a dork.

For standing up for his team when an ICC Official makes ridiculous comments about them?

 

[FRAZ]

For standing up for his team when an ICC Official makes ridiculous comments about them?

Oh yes !

 

[adharcric]

For standing up for his team when an ICC Official makes ridiculous comments about them?

Is anyone even talking about the first part of his statement? No.

 

[Scmods]

Is anyone even talking about the first part of his statement? No.

What first part? Perhaps you'd like to tell us what Suni said that you agree with?

 

[adharcric]

What first part? Perhaps you'd like to tell us what Suni said that you agree with?

I'm referring to Ponting's statement. Punter first said that Gavaskar is in no position to comment on such matters given his history. Fair enough. Next, he went on to talk about how Gavaskar should worry about the recent poor form of his own country (India) instead. Random? Damn right. The immaturity shines through. That's what I'm talking about.

 

[pup11]

What makes Gavaskar come up with such comments about the Aussies now, aussies have been one of the better behaved sides on-field for some time now so really makes no sense to come up with something like this atm.

I think he just wants to distract the aussies just before the start of the WC.


I was just watching some sports news and the news channel quoted Gavaskar saying "he was gladdened to see the aussies lose off-late".

 

[Matt79]

I can see where you are going and you don't have to start off any conversation with a lingual diss or whatever . Have noticed you many times being over smart while answering to my posts .
Anyways who is "we" ? A group of people , clan , tribe or what ?
And the stupid and ridiculous word that I hear all the time in such cases is exaggeration . e.g.
Sunil over - exaggerated , Pakistani players over-exaggerated , this exaggerated ,that exaggerated bla bla bla ..So how to perform this bloody exaggeration ? Sunil described some thing and thats it . How to say such things then ? Can you please teach exaggeration ?

Sorry you took it like that Fraz. I've always enjoyed your posts and have sought to answer them carefully because I wanted to give you respect. If that offends you, or you feel I'm patronising you by being 'over-smart', I'm honestly sorry to hear that.

To answer your questions "we" meant the Australian posters who had been contributing to this thread. And if you don't think things are exaggerated in this kind of discussion, then you're simply wrong.

 

[honestbharani]

That sort of thing never stopped Moin Khan and the rest of the Pakistani team in 2000 against England in Karachi.

So???? Social said Sree's time wasting was pathetic. I was pointing out that he wasn't the only one who does stuff like that. What is your point there???

Gon then. Put your money where your mouth is.

Watch Laxman's test, for starters. And I guess the Barbados match. And the Sarwan-McGrath incident. The Slater incident. And basically almost any time any batsman has thrived against Warne,McGrath, Gillespie (which is rare) because they always have made comments to that effect. And wasn't it Thommo who once said that he wanted to bowl with a bloody headache so that he could kill the eff-ing batsman?


You need me to put any more money?

 

[honestbharani]

I accept the cultural difference point as a valid one - what may be a fairly innocuous comment in one culture can be a dire insult in another, and that should be borne in mind. But it's hypocritical to expect the Aussies to take that into account and yet not take into account the very personal issues which were facing McGrath at the time of his Sarwan blow up and Slater at the time of his Dravid blow up. Either nothing is taken into account and ther is a blanket standard, or everything is examined in its own context.

Really, when you talk about whom Sreesanth might be copying with his antics - you're farily obviously implying McGrath - McGrath's run-in with Sarwan was a piece of shocking behaviour. For one moment set it aside - we are, after all, so forgiving to players from everywhere else for their indiscretions - what else has McGrath ever done on a field that is in anyway materially different to what many other bowlers do/ have done? About the worst thing he's done is say something to a batsman - for most of the time he mutters away to himself and demonstrates that he's got the sh*ts because he's angry that in his 16th over of the day he's bowled his first ball on leg stump. Big deal. How many times did Donald chunter away at himself, throw his head back and have a word with a batsman? Don't think bowlers from every country do/ did that? What about Ambrose in his confrontation with Steve Waugh? Don't tell me Javagal Srinath didn't have a word to some of the Aussie batsmen in 2001? Or Harbajan didn't? Or Zaheer Khan didn't in the World Cup final in '03, only to see his first over go for 15? They all do it, unfortunately and to say that Australia "cross the line" more than any other side is diametrically opposite to the evidence in the form of citings and disclipinary action by match referees against players from that country compared with any other.

nope, not just McGrath. Donald or McDermott or Hughes would work too. The point is, this sledging thing didn't exactly exist with Indian fast bowler. No, Prabhakar and guys like him dont count.


The best fast bowlers from India didn't sledge and so it is obvious that when young guys from India are sledging it is because of their "other" fast bowling heroes. Thomson, Lillee, Donald, McGrath, Pollock.... the list goes on. And you have Ntini on the other end of the spectrum. He says he is inspired to be who he is because of the Windies quartet. There is the example I am referring to.


And I am not saying everyone of Sree's antics are because of his idols. I am not even saying that he is ONLY sledging because his heroes did. I am just saying that IF say his hero is McGrath, and he didn't sledge, he probably wouldn't be sledging right from the start of his career. It is very possible that he is just an aggressive bloke who likes to sledge, regardless of his heroes. But do you really imagine he would be so idiotic that he would be sledging people in his first few games itself? That is where the idol part comes in. He probably thinks "McGrath and Donald do it and get away with it, why can't do it?".


And dont get me wrong here. I am not against sledging, per se. As long as it is kept to abt the people who are out there, I am fine with it. If you cant take those stuff, you probably shouldn't be playing cricket. But it is when friends and family are brought in, that is where it gets dodgy, for me.


Personally, I was rather shocked when Sarwan's response to McGrath was referred to as a "routine reply sledge" by McGrath's own team mates. Because, no matter how bad McGrath's sledging had been, it was still about the players involved. (obviously McGrath must have said worse stuff during his career). It is exactly stuff like that which can cause problems because of cultural differences and stuff. Obviously McGrath deserved what he got because he started the nasty slanging but still..... A line has to be drawn somewhere.


I honestly dont know what is stopping the ICC from writing a rule that says insults about family and friends simply shouldn't take place, no matter how intense the game is. And anyone doing that should cop bans like how they cop for tampering with pitch and stuff.

 

[honestbharani]

I accept the cultural difference point as a valid one - what may be a fairly innocuous comment in one culture can be a dire insult in another, and that should be borne in mind. But it's hypocritical to expect the Aussies to take that into account and yet not take into account the very personal issues which were facing McGrath at the time of his Sarwan blow up and Slater at the time of his Dravid blow up. Either nothing is taken into account and ther is a blanket standard, or everything is examined in its own context.

Really, when you talk about whom Sreesanth might be copying with his antics - you're farily obviously implying McGrath - McGrath's run-in with Sarwan was a piece of shocking behaviour. For one moment set it aside - we are, after all, so forgiving to players from everywhere else for their indiscretions - what else has McGrath ever done on a field that is in anyway materially different to what many other bowlers do/ have done? About the worst thing he's done is say something to a batsman - for most of the time he mutters away to himself and demonstrates that he's got the sh*ts because he's angry that in his 16th over of the day he's bowled his first ball on leg stump. Big deal. How many times did Donald chunter away at himself, throw his head back and have a word with a batsman? Don't think bowlers from every country do/ did that? What about Ambrose in his confrontation with Steve Waugh? Don't tell me Javagal Srinath didn't have a word to some of the Aussie batsmen in 2001? Or Harbajan didn't? Or Zaheer Khan didn't in the World Cup final in '03, only to see his first over go for 15? They all do it, unfortunately and to say that Australia "cross the line" more than any other side is diametrically opposite to the evidence in the form of citings and disclipinary action by match referees against players from that country compared with any other.

And since you mentioned Srinath, what exactly is Ponting's defence on that absolutely unwanted tirade he launched at him after he got hurt by a ball from Srinath and Sri was just apologizing and asking him how he was. That behaviour isn't exactly model behaviour, is it?

And I dont remember Srinath EVER sledging a batsman, esp in 2001. Wanna back that up, because, IIRC, Sri didn't even play in the 2001 series.

 

[honestbharani]

The rant continues but I'll keep this one short.

If you think Australia are the worst behaved side in world cricket, you have missed the antics of Pakistan in the last 12 months alone. You have missed the behaviour in the home South African series vs India and Pakistan a couple of months ago.

People look to criticise the champion sides - it happens here a lot as well - people saying that they want a contest and stuff like that. Fair cop, but why are the standards expected of Australia higher than the standards accepted of others? It's not me saying they are the BEST behaved side, it's your asserting they are the worst, when their disciplinary record compared with the others suggest that this is not the case. So yeah, Steve Waugh wasn't an angel on the field, but that isn't the point - he retired one of the most respected cricketers in the world, by people all around the world - hardlty suggestive of a bloke who you like to insinuate was flouting the standards and laws of the game on an almost daily basis.

On that issue of not giving a drink to the opposition. This falls, I believe within this cultural issue we actually agree on. I fear you may be imbuing the then Australian captain with a greater knowledge of his opponent's culture and faith than that which he had. If, however, it was well known that the Indian player was asking for water for the reason you have stated, I agree, it's a piece of very poor sportsmanship.

If you want me to go side by side, I will do so, but I will take a bit of time to get back to you because - much of what goes on and everyone gets their knickers in a knot about (drum roll)......

ain't that big a deal

- and I actually don't keep a (mostly selective) list of it like so many other people do (I do not inlcude you in that btw). So I will need to do some research Let me know if you reckon it will advance the debate.

Ponting may well have had a re-think on his idea re. the honesty thing, but I was using it to demonstrate the point that the Aussies aren't that bad compared with other sides.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree i guess.

Mate, EVEN I dont think Australia are the worst behaved side, AS OF TODAY. But the point is, through the 90s and early 2000s they were. And as the champion side of that time, they must have behaved a tad better.


And I tend to believe that, at some level, the behaviour of Australia has emboldened other teams to do stuff like that. Their point could well be "Well, they do it and they get away with it, why not us?". And I am not talking about tampering the pitch and stuff here, before you throw me the Afridi incident, I am just talking about the level of sledging and gamesmanship here. Or maybe other teams simply thought that by being aggressive like Australia, they will be able to get results like Australia. I dunno, but as I said, at some level, the way Australia behaved as champions did influence the way other teams have behaved since then. But then again, that is generally true with most champions. Most people look to emulate champions and I guess other teams did try various ways to emulate Australia (remember how every team went on a hunt for their own Gilchrist, its stuff like that). AS I said, as champions, you have responsibities. Some you may like, some you may not like but you still have take care of all that. And when you dont, ppl will criticize you, some will do it a little harder because people do envy champions, as much as they deny it.


And about that Border issue, I dont think it is all that nice to refuse a guy water, even if it is for drinking, when he has just caused a death by accident and is shaken by it. And honestly, an international captain is supposed to be aware of various cultures and sensitivities there. Otherwise, he has no business being a captain. If he is not knowledgeable enough to know this on his own, he should be educated on stuff like this. BTW, I do think Aussies are one of the best when it comes to being aware and enjoying another culture. That is one of the reasons for their popularity in INdia. And of course, the fact that they know how to work a crowd.

 

[Ikki]

I'm referring to Ponting's statement. Punter first said that Gavaskar is in no position to comment on such matters given his history. Fair enough. Next, he went on to talk about how Gavaskar should worry about the recent poor form of his own country (India) instead. Random? Damn right. The immaturity shines through. That's what I'm talking about.

Random? Hardly. It was anything but random.

 

[Matt79]

First of all let me clarify - I have never heard the word Kallu/Gora on a cricket field. I have heard Afridi in a TV interview to a Pakistani channel using those words. So even the illiterates in the subcontinent team have not said ( or atleast caught saying) those words on the field. If they use it as frequently as you claim, then they will be caught because there are plenty of Sub-continent commentators out there, there is a huge sub-continent media covering cricket.

Gavaskar is not tarring anyone with any brush, he is simply saying some of the things a lot of people have obseved.

I never claimed anything about the frequency of their use - you said you'd heard it a lot. I was just reflecting your statement.

 

[honestbharani]

1. In suggesting that certain umpires are racist, or when decisions go against them, alleging racism in others.

2. Yes, as there has been with others, whom people do not see fit to comment upon.

3. No one is saying there never was, is or will be a problem - they are putting their view point in response to the assertion that Australia are the worst behaved side in world cricket.

4. See (3) above. I can't help it. Sometimes I just rant in response to generalisations like the ones characterising the assertion that Australia are the worst behaved side in world cricket.

5. The comment is true. The problem is that the same people who raise this old cliche re. Australia's behaviour deign not to apply it to the behaviour and actions of other sides, players and administrators.

6. Don't have a drama with waving the bat in joy - my post re. Sreesanth was in reply to one saying that his bad behaviour (assuming he behaved badly) was inspired by McGrath, who I can assure you has never waved a bat in triumph in his life

well, he did once. Against the kiwis.

 

[Matt79]

I can see where you are going and you don't have to start off any conversation with a lingual diss or whatever . Have noticed you many times being over smart while answering to my posts .
Anyways who is "we" ? A group of people , clan , tribe or what ?
And the stupid and ridiculous word that I hear all the time in such cases is exaggeration . e.g.
Sunil over - exaggerated , Pakistani players over-exaggerated , this exaggerated ,that exaggerated bla bla bla ..So how to perform this bloody exaggeration ? Sunil described some thing and thats it . How to say such things then ? Can you please teach exaggeration ?

If it was the "I can see where you're going with this" comment that upset you, I can assure you I wasn't criticising you language usage at all - I was saying that I could see that you were asking a series of rhetorical questions designed to show that you thought Suni was right and that people disagreeing with him were wrong.