Who is for the chop?

[Poker Boy]

After this shambolic Ashes tour, changes are inevitable. So who should get the chop from the Ashes tour party? A few ideas:
1. Giles. A no-brainer surely. Thank you and goodbye Ashley.
2.G Jones: Batting confidence shot to pieces. Back to county cricket - forever?
3.Read: Can't cope under pressure. Back to county cricket - DEFINATELY FOREVER!
4.Plunkett: Why was he picked in the first place?
5.Joyce: The Theo Walcott of the Ashes? Why did Fletcher not give him a chance instead of Mahmood? Had he no faith in him?
6.Mahmood: If SJ and Tremlett get fit...
7.Anderson: ditto.
8.Fletcher as coach : He's done a great job, but he's past his sell-by date. Moody or Woolmer please.
9.Freddie as captain: Will we ever learn? Appoint Strauss with Bell vice-captain - groom him for long-term future.
I'd be interested to see what others think.

 

[pasag]

Can only get rid of people if there are better players waiting in the wings though. Would like to see Mahmood stick around, he has heaps of potential imo.

 

[Barney Rubble]

After this shambolic Ashes tour, changes are inevitable. So who should get the chop from the Ashes tour party? A few ideas:
1. Giles. A no-brainer surely. Thank you and goodbye Ashley.
2.G Jones: Batting confidence shot to pieces. Back to county cricket - forever?
3.Read: Can't cope under pressure. Back to county cricket - DEFINATELY FOREVER!
4.Plunkett: Why was he picked in the first place?
5.Joyce: The Theo Walcott of the Ashes? Why did Fletcher not give him a chance instead of Mahmood? Had he no faith in him?
6.Mahmood: If SJ and Tremlett get fit...
7.Anderson: ditto.
8.Fletcher as coach : He's done a great job, but he's pasy his sell-by date. Moody or Woolmer please.
9.Freddie as captain: Will we ever learn? Appoint Strauss with Bell vice-captain - groom him for long-term future.
I'd be interested to see what others think.

1. Exactly right. Don't want to see him in an England shirt again, as much as I love him he's not good enough any more.
2. Yep, agree with that.
3. And that.
4. Has a bit of potential, but needs a whole season of county cricket before he should be given another chance.
5. Was only ever going to play if a batsman got injured IMO.
6. Has a future IMO - remember his first spell in Tests? Needs a bit more county cricket and a few less ODIs.
7. Needs more county cricket.
8. Yep, thank you and goodbye Dunc.
9. Definitely agree. Strauss has 3 wins from 4, was harsh to demote him in the first place. Plus Freddie hasn't exactly impressed so far. Bell's probably the only logical option for the vice-captaincy if Vaughan isn't coming back yet - Collingwood would be the first to go if Vaughan did come back, Pietersen doesn't have the personality for it and Cook's too young.

 

[Poker Boy]

Perhaps, but remember they picked SJ and Tremlett ahead of him when they were fit, so by logic if those two ever recover they should be ahead of him.

 

[Jamee999]

9. Definitely agree. Strauss has 3 wins from 4, was harsh to demote him in the first place. Plus Freddie hasn't exactly impressed so far. Bell's probably the only logical option for the vice-captaincy if Vaughan isn't coming back yet - Collingwood would be the first to go if Vaughan did come back, Pietersen doesn't have the personality for it and Cook's too young.

A bowler?

 

[GIMH]

After this shambolic Ashes tour, changes are inevitable. So who should get the chop from the Ashes tour party? A few ideas:
1. Giles. A no-brainer surely. Thank you and goodbye Ashley.
2.G Jones: Batting confidence shot to pieces. Back to county cricket - forever?
3.Read: Can't cope under pressure. Back to county cricket - DEFINATELY FOREVER!
4.Plunkett: Why was he picked in the first place?
5.Joyce: The Theo Walcott of the Ashes? Why did Fletcher not give him a chance instead of Mahmood? Had he no faith in him?
6.Mahmood: If SJ and Tremlett get fit...
7.Anderson: ditto.
8.Fletcher as coach : He's done a great job, but he's past his sell-by date. Moody or Woolmer please.
9.Freddie as captain: Will we ever learn? Appoint Strauss with Bell vice-captain - groom him for long-term future.
I'd be interested to see what others think.

Nah, Anderson's a better bowler than any besides our top 4 quicks, he's just badly out of shape and form I reckon.

Why give Joyce the chop before he's ever played a Test?

And we haven't learnt anything we didn't know about Read IMO, so he either shouldn't have been picked or shouldn't be dropped. Don't think they'll have the face to go back to Geraint, I reckon Read will be behind the stumps when WI come to England

 

[Poker Boy]

About Joyce - remember we only need eleven for a home Test and Vaughan and/or Tesco might come back. My point is - our tail has been crap Mahmood under-bowled and we never thought of giving him a chance and playing four bowlers. Why pick five bowlers if one seems not to have the captain's confidence?

 

[Barney Rubble]

A bowler?

I've never been a fan of bowlers as captain/vice-captain. Besides, who's it gonna be? Hoggard or Harmison, and neither of them would suit it anyway.

 

[adharcric]

1. Definitely.
2. Definitely.
3. Well, he's your best option unfortunately. Find someone else first.
4. Nothing special, but he has nothing to do with the Ashes.
5. Same. Why would you get rid of him?
6. No way. Solid potential.
7. He's fine. Needs some CC action.
8. Definitely.
9. Pretty much. Freddie needs to focus on taking wickets.

 

[wpdavid]

Apart from the obvious candidates such as Giles & G. Jones, it depends on the shape of the team (i.e. 4 bowlers or 5) and the state of Vaughan's knee & Tresco's mental health. If either of those is available and we're still playing 5 bowlers, then one or two of the batters are going to miss out, which will be a tough call. Any of the top 5 would consider themselves unlucky to lose out, but only KP has done enough to make himself absolutely safe.

As for the quicks, Plunkett must be worried that the selectors view him as even worse than what we've seen from Harmison, Anderson & Mahmood during this series. Obviously S. Jones comes straight back in if fit, and I'd like to see Broad playing ASAP, preferably in place of Harmison, who's still not doing nearly enough to justify the faith that's been placed in him.

If Fred is to stay at number 6, a long shot might be someone like Tom Smith or the Yorkshire leggie whose name escapes me, either of whom is a likelier bet at number 8 than the current bunch.

 

[Goughy]

Can someone please do me the favour of educating my simple mind and explain how Mahmood has a lot of potential?

 

[Jamee999]

TBH, Mahmood is keeping Broad's boots warm during his development.

 

[pasag]

Can someone please do me the favour of educating my simple mind and explain how Mahmood has a lot of potential?

You think he doesn't?

 

[Barney Rubble]

Can someone please do me the favour of educating my simple mind and explain how Mahmood has a lot of potential?

TBH I feel a bit shaky arguing this with you, seeing as you know far more about the ins and outs of bowling than I ever will, but I think Mahmood's first Test spell proved that he has the capability to trouble international batsmen. The pace, bounce and reverse swing he was getting in his spell against Sri Lanka showed the raw ability he has - it's just a case of harnessing that and getting him to produce it more often. How that can be done, I don't know, and he might turn out to be a complete flop, but I do think if we handle him right, he could be an asset. Not just yet, though.

 

[Goughy]

TBH I feel a bit shaky arguing this with you, seeing as you know far more about the ins and outs of bowling than I ever will, but I think Mahmood's first Test spell proved that he has the capability to trouble international batsmen. The pace, bounce and reverse swing he was getting in his spell against Sri Lanka showed the raw ability he has - it's just a case of harnessing that and getting him to produce it more often. How that can be done, I don't know, and he might turn out to be a complete flop, but I do think if we handle him right, he could be an asset. Not just yet, though.

Yes, but to be honest I could trouble international batsmen every now and again. Its hardly the basis for an international career.

The fact is, he is not a very good bowler at the international level. He averages less than 3 wickets a game during his FC career (119 in 43 games). He is not a wickettaking bowler in the slightest and a bowler a captain finds hard to trust.

His attributes that you mention (non of which are that dramatically impressive) hide the fact that people are not foucusing on what makes a good bowler. If economy, pressure and accuracy or wickettaking ability are not mentioned when talking about the bowler then the bowler isnt very good. What is his job in the team? Look good or take wickets and keep runs down?

His action is also horrible. He forces everything with his right side. This makes his body pivot and dip leading to the ball coming our like a scatter gun. Basically, he 'shoulders' the ball and that really affects accuracy.

He has done nothing to deserve his place and nothing to keep it.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Yes, but to be honest I could trouble international batsmen every now and again. Its hardly the basis for an international career.

The fact is, he is not a very good bowler at the international level. He averages less than 3 wickets a game during his FC career (119 in 43 games). He is not a wickettaking bowler in the slightest and a bowler a captain finds hard to trust.

His attributes that you mention (non of which are that dramatically impressive) hide the fact that people are not foucusing on what makes a good bowler. If economy, pressure and accuracy or wickettaking ability are not mentioned when talking about the bowler then the bowler isnt very good. What is his job in the team? Look good or take wickets and keep runs down?

His action is also horrible. He forces everything with his right side. This makes his body pivot and dip leading to the ball coming our like a scatter gun. Basically, he 'shoulders' the ball and that really affects accuracy.

He has done nothing to deserve his place and nothing to keep it.

Not much I can say in reply to that TBH. Like I said, you know far more about the art of bowling than I do, and on something like this I'd probably back your opinion over my own.

It's not like I've been especially impressed with anything Saj has done since that one spell, I was just holding onto some vain hope that he might not turn out a complete waste of space.

 

[Tomm NCCC]

You still have to say that Fred has been guilt of underusing him. Just your 4 overs so far in this test? He wasnt shockingly expensive either.

 

[Goughy]

You still have to say that Fred has been guilt of underusing him. Just your 4 overs so far in this test? He wasnt shockingly expensive either.

Well its the argument againt 5 bowlers. There just are not enough overs for 5 bowlers to be used fully (I know England only bowled for 2 sessions in this particular case) and if you are looking to take wickets why would you go for your 5th choice bowler (Im putting Anderson ahead of Saj) ahead of your main 2 or 3?

There is little logic behind bowling a bowler you think gives you less chance of taking a wicket ahead bowlers you think are better.

By their very nature, a 5th bowler is not as highly regarded as a 1,2,or 3 and its hard to find any point in the game where you would prefer a lesser bowler bowling than a better one.

 

[aussie]

The fact is, he is not a very good bowler at the international level. He averages less than 3 wickets a game during his FC career (119 in 43 games). He is not a wickettaking bowler in the slightest and a bowler a captain finds hard to trust.

Facts dont tell the whole story. Yes his FC record may not be the greatest, but not all players who have had fantastic FC records have gotten picked immediately. Look at Panesar, Johnson for recent examples both were picked based on potential not fantastic FC stats and gradually the have shown they are capable of doing well on the international stage

His attributes that you mention (non of which are that dramatically impressive) hide the fact that people are not foucusing on what makes a good bowler. If economy, pressure and accuracy or wickettaking ability are not mentioned when talking about the bowler then the bowler isnt very good. What is his job in the team? Look good or take wickets and keep runs down?.

Fair point, but Mahmood does have wicket-taking ability. Bowlers of his ilk who are bowl very quickly aren't the most accurate or economical, they make up for it throught their ability to take wickets i.e Akhtar vs England 2005. Yes Mahmood hasn't shown tremedous wicket-taking ability to date in his international career, but like Harmison who is a very similar type bowler to him, Mahmood just needs one major series to sringboard him into the right direction & he'll be fine IMO.

His action is also horrible. He forces everything with his right side. This makes his body pivot and dip leading to the ball coming our like a scatter gun. Basically, he 'shoulders' the ball and that really affects accuracy.

He has done nothing to deserve his place and nothing to keep it.

I ain't no expert on bowling actions, but i've seen worst than Mahmood, i.e Malinga, Tait, Edwards, Mohanty, Wickramesinghe to name a few off my head, Mahmood action looks fairly simple to me. He does deserve a place in the side because he is one of the best fast bowlers in the country even if his figures on the international stage don't justify his place in the side ATM. Just give him time..

 

[Neil Pickup]

I ain't no expert on bowling actions, but i've seen worst than Mahmood, i.e Malinga, Tait, Edwards

I think the second half of the sentence proves the first. Textbook actions do not make good actions.