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Most unlikely Test cricketers

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Autobahn said:
To a younger spinner just starting out like (Monty Panesar) the Pakistan tour would have been a disaster and destroyed his confidence, whereas an older spinner like Swann would have been more able to take it in his stride.

Though i personally think Udal's selelction was based on his good county form.
Well it sho' nuff can't have been based on anything else.
And, let's face it - what else is there to base selection on? County is the best standard of cricket England have domestically.
I doubt anyone would have been able to take a series like Udal-Pakistan in their stride. Even Udal himself clearly didn't.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
BoyBrumby said:
Ok: Ray Price (of players who bowled over 100 overs in ODs last year only Charl Willoughby had a better economy rate), Grant Flower, Swann himself, Gilo, Jason Brown, Udal; all below 4.5 for 2005. Like I said: England, the new spinners' paradise...
Certainly everyone knows Wantage Road tends to be. Brown doesn't prove anything.
Giles bowled all of 47 overs domestically.
Price and Flower are fine bowlers.
Swann has been good since 2003. I've not watched him bowl in that time, so I don't know why.
Udal also often has bowler-friendly pitches - anyone who knows The Rose Bowl knows it's not a good place to bat.
I don't see what 1 single bowler (Swann) means - 'cos he's the only bowler who's managed to bowl consistently well without (as far as I know) bowling on spin-friendly pitches.
& journeyman means someone who's not of the first water, a drudge or a hack, which fits Udal pretty well I'd say.
I've always thought of it as someone who plays for lots of domestic sides - eg Colin Miller.
Swann may well have rather Udal got belted, but I would hope as a professional sportsman he'd back himself not to get belted. Any bowler who expects to be belted shouldn't be bowling.
Yes, clearly. But had he been so, you seriously think that would not have affected him?
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Richard said:
Certainly everyone knows Wantage Road tends to be. Brown doesn't prove anything.
Giles bowled all of 47 overs domestically.
Price and Flower are fine bowlers.
Swann has been good since 2003. I've not watched him bowl in that time, so I don't know why.
Udal also often has bowler-friendly pitches - anyone who knows The Rose Bowl knows it's not a good place to bat.
I don't see what 1 single bowler (Swann) means - 'cos he's the only bowler who's managed to bowl consistently well without (as far as I know) bowling on spin-friendly pitches.
Giles bowled 114 overs if you include ODIs, which are generally of higher standard than domestic comps & still maintained an ER of less than 4.5. Price & Flower bowled orthodox spin, as did Swann, so even if you exclude Brown & Udal, there's four bowlers. I could also have suggested Martyn Ball (102 overs @ 3.98) or Dinesh Mongia (91.3 overs @ 4.33).

What it means is that finger spinners can be economical without turning the ball hugely. Contrary to your earlier assertion.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
BoyBrumby said:
Giles bowled 114 overs if you include ODIs, which are generally of higher standard than domestic comps & still maintained an ER of less than 4.5.
Giles in ODIs certainly wasn't that economical.
Domestically he was, bowling few overs.
Price & Flower bowled orthodox spin, as did Swann, so even if you exclude Brown & Udal, there's four bowlers. I could also have suggested Martyn Ball (102 overs @ 3.98) or Dinesh Mongia (91.3 overs @ 4.33).

What it means is that finger spinners can be economical without turning the ball hugely. Contrary to your earlier assertion.
Did you actually see how much Price and Flower turned it?
I only saw 1 match all season for either, Grant Flower, and he certainly got it to go on that occasion.
Dinesh Mongia has some sort of gift for economical bowling where England are involved - just about every time he's bowled, either in England (even in the Twenty20 Cup) or against them in ODIs, he's bowled economically. Most of the time other than that, teams seem to have few problems.
Certainly, Martyn Ball has had the benefit of nice, slow, turning Nevill Road squares - it's been one of the secrets of Gloucs' one-day success.
Most of the time, when fingerspinners bowl on non-turning surfaces with any decent pace, they'll get caned.
Maybe I should have added that turn isn't neccessary on a very nice, slow surface.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
BoyBrumby said:
Giles bowled 114 overs if you include ODIs, which are generally of higher standard than domestic comps & still maintained an ER of less than 4.5. Price & Flower bowled orthodox spin, as did Swann, so even if you exclude Brown & Udal, there's four bowlers. I could also have suggested Martyn Ball (102 overs @ 3.98) or Dinesh Mongia (91.3 overs @ 4.33).

What it means is that finger spinners can be economical without turning the ball hugely. Contrary to your earlier assertion.
To be fair, Chelmsford spun quite a lot last year (our whole success in the NCL was based on spin, and it turned a lot).
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Richard,
You said something..

Richard said:
They do?
Care to give us some examples? I can think of precisely 0.
I can't even think of any who go at less than 4.5, let alone respectible.
Brumby replied with a very reasonable point to disprove what you said..

BoyBrumby said:
Ok: Ray Price (of players who bowled over 100 overs in ODs last year only Charl Willoughby had a better economy rate), Grant Flower, Swann himself, Gilo, Jason Brown, Udal; all below 4.5 for 2005.
Then you tried to refute the point by adding in all sorts of terms and conditions that you neglected to mention in the first place.

Richard said:
Certainly everyone knows Wantage Road tends to be. Brown doesn't prove anything.
Giles bowled all of 47 overs domestically.
Price and Flower are fine bowlers.
Swann has been good since 2003. I've not watched him bowl in that time, so I don't know why.
Udal also often has bowler-friendly pitches - anyone who knows The Rose Bowl knows it's not a good place to bat.
I don't see what 1 single bowler (Swann) means - 'cos he's the only bowler who's managed to bowl consistently well without (as far as I know) bowling on spin-friendly
When you make blanket statements and are proved wrong you cannot retrospectively add caveats and still maintain credibility.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Anyway, trying to get this thread back on topic,

I would suggest one of the most obviously lucky and unlikely Test cricketers is Tony Pigott.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Goughy said:
Richard,
You said something..

Brumby replied with a very reasonable point to disprove what you said..

Then you tried to refute the point by adding in all sorts of terms and conditions that you neglected to mention in the first place.

When you make blanket statements and are proved wrong you cannot retrospectively add caveats and still maintain credibility.
Why not?
I didn't say exactly what I should have said at the start.
And I don't really see why I had to.
I've clearly proved, though not in the course of just 1 post, that generally to bowl fingerspin economically against decent batsmen you need a turning and\or slow, "sticky" pitch.
At least, as far as I'm concerned.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Tom Halsey said:
Yes, can't speak for others though.
Well I can speak for Brown, Udal and Ball; and I'd not be surprised if Price was also.
You can't just assume that, because England doesn't that often produce fingerspin-friendly pitches, there are none anywhere.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Richard said:
Why not?
I didn't say exactly what I should have said at the start.
And I don't really see why I had to.
I've clearly proved, though not in the course of just 1 post, that generally to bowl fingerspin economically against decent batsmen you need a turning and\or slow, "sticky" pitch.
At least, as far as I'm concerned.
Because it makes you look jesuitical if you don't. If someone (myself in this case) disproves one of your contentions it's the easiest thing in the world to turn round & say "no, that's not what I meant, I really meant this...".

&, it's stating the obvious but I feel I have to say it anyway, you haven't proved anything, far less clearly. If a bowler maintains a decent ER across a season I think it's reasonable to assume he won't have had conditions in his favour in every game.

To return to the point that started this, Udal clearly wasn't good enough as a bowler to adjust to a non-responsive pitch.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
BoyBrumby said:
Because it makes you look jesuitical if you don't. If someone (myself in this case) disproves one of your contentions it's the easiest thing in the world to turn round & say "no, that's not what I meant, I really meant this...".

&, it's stating the obvious but I feel I have to say it anyway, you haven't proved anything, far less clearly. If a bowler maintains a decent ER across a season I think it's reasonable to assume he won't have had conditions in his favour in every game.
Not every game, no, but a if fingerspinner maintains one it's reasonable to guess (and in many cases we have substantial evidence that they did) have conditions in their favour in a majority of them.
To return to the point that started this, Udal clearly wasn't good enough as a bowler to adjust to a non-responsive pitch.
And no fingerspinner, ever, is.
As a fingerspinner, if the pitch doesn't help you, there's absolutely nothing you can do.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
And no fingerspinner, ever, is.
As a fingerspinner, if the pitch doesn't help you, there's absolutely nothing you can do.
That's such crap it's almost unbelievable that you are attempting to say it.

What about, say, Daniel Vettori? This is a guy who, playing entirely in the highest scoring era of ODI cricket, on some of the least responsive home surfaces in the world, has an ODI economy rate of 4.22. In tests against Australia, once again on unresponsive surfaces, he's been miles clear of every other New Zealand bowler, and singlehandedly kept them in the contest at times, by at least bowling economically (to everybody but Gilchrist, anyway) and picking up the odd wicket.

Even Ashley Giles, God forbid I say it, manages to keep it tight when the ball isn't turning. That's what flight and drift are for - you might not get many wickets just by flighting the ball well, but you make yourself a hell of a lot harder to hit around, and if batsmen do try and hit you around and you beat them in the flight you might well pick up a wicket.

Adding to Dale's examples of English domestic players, how about some Australians? You know who had the best economy rate of any bowler with over 50 overs this ING Cup season? Darren Lehmann - 3.89. In fact, the only other bowler who managed an economy rate under 4 from 50+ overs was Brett Dorey. How about guys with less than 50 overs? It's a short season after all, and not many players bowl that many. Well, Michael Clarke! 3.57, and a fingerspinner.

Throw in others like Marcus North (4.61), Jason Krezja (3.17), and consider the fact that Australia doesn't even have that many fingerspinners compared to England, and you've got plenty more evidence that if you bowl decently, change your pace, flight the ball and little and so on, you can keep the runs down on any surface. If an average bowler like Darren Lehmann can do it, any frontline fingerspinner can too.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Really? How come so few do it, then?
Fact is, Vettori has exceptional skill - it's hard to believe that Lehmann does, too, but he has sure been a damn fine one-day bowler for a good while now.
I'll assure you Michael Clarke wouldn't get much of an economy-rate if he bowled a bit more. He's a very, very average bowler.
Jason Krejza, is he not, is a wristspinner? I'll also be surprised if he amounts to much.
Almost any (orthodox - ie non-Doosra-bowling like Saqlain and Harbhajan) fingerspinner is not capable of bowling economically as Vettori and Lehmann.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
FaaipDeOiad said:
What about, say, Daniel Vettori? This is a guy who, playing entirely in the highest scoring era of ODI cricket, on some of the least responsive home surfaces in the world, has an ODI economy rate of 4.22.
He's already described Vettori (and Giles)

Their low ERs are apparently all luck.

Because they're lucky they've not been hammered by batsmen...
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Richard said:
Really? How come so few do it, then?
Fact is, Vettori has exceptional skill - it's hard to believe that Lehmann does, too, but he has sure been a damn fine one-day bowler for a good while now.
I'll assure you Michael Clarke wouldn't get much of an economy-rate if he bowled a bit more. He's a very, very average bowler.
Jason Krejza, is he not, is a wristspinner? I'll also be surprised if he amounts to much.
Almost any (orthodox - ie non-Doosra-bowling like Saqlain and Harbhajan) fingerspinner is not capable of bowling economically as Vettori and Lehmann.
could it be that it requires exceptional skill for any spin bowler to be successful(or at least to fit under the 4.5 bracket) in ODI cricket? merely stereotyping fingerspinners is a real lack of common sense.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Goughy said:
Richard,
You said something..



Brumby replied with a very reasonable point to disprove what you said..



Then you tried to refute the point by adding in all sorts of terms and conditions that you neglected to mention in the first place.


When you make blanket statements and are proved wrong you cannot retrospectively add caveats and still maintain credibility.
You'll get used to it.
 

TIF

U19 Debutant
From India, in recent years since 1996 -

Paras Mhambrey
Vikram Rathore
David Johnson
Robin Singh jnr. - Who? Has played 1 test as well:wacko:
Nikhil Chopra
Vijay Dahiya
Rahul Sanghui
Deep Dasgupta
Iqbal Siddiqui
Parthiv Patel
 

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